Competition for BMW

[sly]

It use to be if you wanted a high performance and high quality automobile, you looked to BMW. There are now lots of choices which of course is great news to enthusiasts like us. Competiton of course triggers better products and helps keep prices down.

Although it wouldn't fit my needs, the new Mustang with the 300HP engine for around $30K has to be very attractive to a lot of buyers. Also, I just read in AutoWeek that GTO now offers the same 400HP engine found in the C6 Corvette, and the price for this car will be in the mid $30s.

Then of course there's the Japanese offerings: the 298 HP '05 G35 and 350Z. These cars will sell in the mid $30s.

Each buyer has his own values, but a 400HP GTO for $35K could provide some stiff competiton for a $40K 220HP BMW 330.

 

[epj3]

The quality of the cars, the GTO, Corvette, and mustang, are still nowhere that of the BMW. People can buy them for the power, but personally, after my accident, will be buying another bmw and continuing to put twice as much money into it as my friends with their camaro's do becuase of the quality of the car, and the way it held up.
I can't believe the fiberglass body - Vette will hold up better in a serious accident than an M3. Same with a GTO. They simply aren't built as well (Ie fenders held on by rivets, not welds...)

 

[Tom]

From a performance perspective, yes they are very attractive options. However, from a quality perspective, I'm still unsure wither I can trust Pontiac or Ford for that matter.

 

[DrivingTopless]

Actually, the '05 Mustang GT starts under $26K. Pretty inexpensive for 300hp!

 

[epj3]

From a performance perspective, yes they are very attractive options. However, from a quality perspective, I'm still unsure wither I can trust Pontiac or Ford for that matter.

Exactly. From a first hand perspective the BMW is superior no matter what. Speed sells. Handling sells sometimes, good brakes are kind of a 'nice thing to have', and saftey? Nobody cares about that. But when it comes down to it, a car that is safer is almost always built better.

 

[sly]

The quality of the cars, the GTO, Corvette, and mustang, are still nowhere that of the BMW. People can buy them for the power, but personally, after my accident, will be buying another bmw and continuing to put twice as much money into it as my friends with their camaro's do becuase of the quality of the car, and the way it held up.
I can't believe the fiberglass body - Vette will hold up better in a serious accident than an M3. Same with a GTO. They simply aren't built as well (Ie fenders held on by rivets, not welds...)

Your quality observation is probably shared by 95% of the public, and in the past BMW quality was unsurpassed. If you go by the findings of JD Powers and Consummer Reports, that's no longer the case. As a matter of fact Consummer Reports just released their 2004 quality report and the BMW 5 series was in the bottom 5 % of the cars they evaluated. The 7 series also got poor results. I'm not certain about how well the 3 series did. Of course the Japanese models, particularly Lexus and Toyota models dominated the top 5, but surprisingly there were many American made cars that finished well ahead of most BMW models.

So there's perception and then there's reality. Fortunately for BMW the general perception is that they make expensive but high quality cars. The reality is that BMWs are expensive, but their quality at least according to J D Powers and Consummer Reports is lacking.

Now if you judge quality solely on how well cars perform in crash tests, you may be correct. I don't have data that compares the 3 series to Pontiacs or Mustangs.

 

[TheBry]

Your quality observation is probably shared by 95% of the public, and in the past BMW quality was unsurpassed. If you go by the findings of JD Powers and Consummer Reports, that's no longer the case. As a matter of fact Consummer Reports just released their 2004 quality report and the BMW 5 series was in the bottom 5 % of the cars they evaluated. The 7 series also got poor results. I'm not certain about how well the 3 series did. Of course the Japanese models, particularly Lexus and Toyota models dominated the top 5, but surprisingly there were many American made cars that finished well ahead of most BMW models.

So there's perception and then there's reality. Fortunately for BMW the general perception is that they make expensive but high quality cars. The reality is that BMWs are expensive, but their quality at least according to J D Powers and Consummer Reports is lacking.

Now if you judge quality solely on how well cars perform in crash tests, you may be correct. I don't have data that compares the 3 series to Pontiacs or Mustangs.

I think you're mistaking "Quality" for "Reliability". There's a distinction. Sure, the Japanese models have superior reliability in some cases, and I'm certain American brands have become more reliable over time. However, when the word "Quality" is thrown around, it should be used to describe lots of things -- most notably the "Quality" of materials and processes used in manufacture. When I compare my convertible to others on the market, the only ones that even come CLOSE in terms of craftsmanship, fit-and-finish of materials are other German convertibles (notably the new 6-series and a couple of cabrios from Mercedes). That's it! I look at other convertibles and their interiors seem down right spartan -- fit and finish isn't well thought out, and materials don't ever feel as "right" as they do in my car.

Of course this is subjective. These are the things that are most important to me -- I spend a lot of time in my car, so I want it to be well appointed, comfortable, and seamless. BMW gives me that. Other folks find horsepower or low prices, or other things more important. But as BMW drivers, you cannot deny that you do indeed get what you pay for.

 

[jrt67ss350]

I can't believe the fiberglass body - Vette will hold up better in a serious accident than an M3. Same with a GTO. They simply aren't built as well (Ie fenders held on by rivets, not welds...)

Fenders are bolted on, just as the fenders were bolted onto your 1988. Your fenders and the fenders of new BMWs are not welded on. Production cars almost never have welded-on fenders.

 

[sly]

I think you're mistaking "Quality" for "Reliability". There's a distinction. Sure, the Japanese models have superior reliability in some cases, and I'm certain American brands have become more reliable over time. However, when the word "Quality" is thrown around, it should be used to describe lots of things -- most notably the "Quality" of materials and processes used in manufacture.

Of course this is subjective. These are the things that are most important to me -- I spend a lot of time in my car, so I want it to be well appointed, comfortable, and seamless. BMW gives me that. Other folks find horsepower or low prices, or other things more important. But as BMW drivers, you cannot deny that you do indeed get what you pay for.

1. Quality is measured by how well a product does what it is supposed to do. At least that's the way every business I've ever worked for measured quality. So for the most part quality is reliability. If our car broke down on the highway a few times and had to be towed to the garage to be repaired, I don't think many of us would take much solace in the fact that the fit and finish of our car is top rate. And we certainly wouldn't feel that we were driving a high quality car regardless of the car's fit and finish.

2. For many years German automobile manufacturers lead the world in the quality of the cars they made. BMW, MB, and Porsche made cars that would last forever at a time when you were lucky to get 50K miles on an American made car before it literally fell apart. So when you paid a premium for German cars, you could take solace in the fact that you owned a car that would last for years and a car that would command a great resale price when you chose to sell it.

I'm at a point now where I do have to question the premium I pay for German cars. The Porsche 996 has problems with RMS leaks. MBs have become notorious for having electrical problems. And let's not forget BMW's M3 connecting rod bearing recalls. Ten years ago all of these manufacturers made bulletproof cars, and charged a high premium for them. Today the quality or if you prefer the reliability of German cars has fallen significantly but they still charge a premium. So when you buy a German car today I'm not at all certain you are getting what you paid for.

 

[Steve176]

I took the new mustang GT for a drive the other day, and I must say it goes. I was on a smooth road so it was hard to tell how the ride felt. However, Mustangs have never been known for their nice ride. The interior was okay but cheap, thats why you can get one around $30,000. So if you just want to take short trips and want power the Mustang might be a nice choice. At this point I am still leaning towards the E46 or might wait for the E90. The E46 rides so much better and the interior quality is also better. They are two totally different cars. It depends on what you are looking for. I like nice stuff, and I just might be getting over my mid life crises ( I think), so the go fast is not as important.

 

[Harman1]

Hey if you want to go fast buy a 60's muscle car, at least it will hold its value. You buy a new mustang GT and in a couple of years you can't give it away. If you want superior ride and handling buy a BMW. I can say that I'm impressed with the handling, ride and quite cabin ever at higher speeds. I drove several cars before buying and none handle and had the comfort and quality interior like the BMW.

 

[Wallie05]

WOW, well said Sly...in both instances. I could not have said it better myself. I agree a 100% that the premium BMW now charges is based on the gullible, blindingly loyal likes of Epj3. I'm also at the point where I'm considering switching over to a Lexus or Infiniti (06 GS v. M45).

Bry: I agreew with your statements regarding your convertible compared to others. E46s were well put together inside and out; but their design is several years old already, and hardly mimics the trends of the new BMWs. Take a look at 5er interior--talk about cheap and spartan?? That's my impression when I sat/sit in it. Just to make it absolutely clear how far BMW has dropped in some of these rankings. Take a look at these JD Power Rankings for the 5er for the last ten years. Notice any trends regards the 2004 model???

Oh and mechanical and build quality are two separate items. With mechanical quality referring to reliability, and build quality referring to fit and finish....Nonetheless, BMW has disappointed in both regards as of late.


http://www.edmunds.com/new/2004/bmw...tml?tid=edmunds.n.ratings.ratingsbody..5.BMW*

 

[codex57]

My 3 series is a quality car in both materials and reliability. The only exception is minor stuff like sunshade clips, window regulators, etc. The important stuff is solid. The Japanese are better overall, but the materials they use in the major stuff isn't as nice as the Germans. Stuff like the steel they use, etc. They do well on tests, but I dunno about actual accidents. Real humans don't get in the exact same accident as those tests. But, I would consider a Japanese car b/c the interior materials are still exellent to decent (they do leather MUCH better than the Germans for some odd reason), overall reliability is better, and they offer more for your money.

Still won't consider an American car. Need to pop into the new Mustang to see if they changed suppliers, but I highly doubt it. GM didn't so they're new cars are still off my list. The Americans are cheap cars, but unfortunately, that doesn't mean value. It's just cheap. Cheap in price, and quality. As such, no thanks. I'm not on a shoe string budget. I can afford to buy a new car that resembles a new car. Even if I couldn't, a 5 year old Corolla would still feel newer and better than a new Cavalier or Neon.

 

[aNoodle]

I don't know...Cady is giving them a run for their money. I got an X3 as a loner this week while my car is in for a new (factory re-manufactured) transmission.....MADE BY GM!!!!! Damn, BMW and their stupid GM transmissions....uggggghhhh I'm sorry...I'm just sore...this is a $4,200 ding to my wallet at 123,000 miles.

But anyway, the X3 is a solid SUV....er, SAV. But I have to say, I think the quality has gone down a bit. Not as bad as the interior of the 5, but I think the E46 sedans and coupes are done much nicer. There are several places around the new X3 that just seem cheap. (Maybe I'll take some pictures and start a new thread.)

 

[Nataku]

IMO the premium paid to own a BMW is not the quality, fit / finish but the "BMW experience". The car handles very well and communicate very every bump in the road to the driver. You know what the car is doing through the feedback in the steering wheel. Its like the car is one with the driver. This is something very subject but very elusive to reproduce. This is my first BMW, and the experience is amazing. This was the first thing I noticed, the steering was so sharp and accurate you really feel total control of the car. In many of the car reviews, they would mention the feel and experience as lifeless or artificial then they would say compare it to the BMW, meaning the BMW is the pinnacle of the driving experience ( thus the Ultimate Driving Machine ). If I wanted reliability I would have bought a Japanese Car like a Toyota or Honda.

 

[Abdoman]

Well said Nataku.

I completely agree.

 

[sly]

IMO the premium paid to own a BMW is not the quality, fit / finish but the "BMW experience". The car handles very well and communicate very every bump in the road to the driver. You know what the car is doing through the feedback in the steering wheel. Its like the car is one with the driver. This is something very subject but very elusive to reproduce. This is my first BMW, and the experience is amazing. This was the first thing I noticed, the steering was so sharp and accurate you really feel total control of the car. In many of the car reviews, they would mention the feel and experience as lifeless or artificial then they would say compare it to the BMW, meaning the BMW is the pinnacle of the driving experience ( thus the Ultimate Driving Machine ). If I wanted reliability I would have bought a Japanese Car like a Toyota or Honda.

Nataku: In the past when you bought a BMW you got the outstanding quality and the "BMW experience." Now you just get the experience. It's interesting that you acknowledge that BMW doesn't have the reliablility of a $20K Honda or Toyota, and you still are willing to pay top dollar for the "BMW experience." That's great news for BMW since it will cost them a hell of a lot less money to make a car with marginal quality than it does to make a car with best in class quality.

It's probably the way to go if you want to maximize profitability. Porsche went down that path in '98 when they introduced their 996. You still got the "Porsche experience" with the 996, but the quality of that car is no where near the level of the 993. But the bottom line is that Porsche greatly improved their bottm line and they are now the most profitable car company in the world. Interestingly enough, BMW is number 2.

 

[Nataku]

It's probably the way to go if you want to maximize profitability. Porsche went down that path in '98 when they introduced their 996. You still got the "Porsche experience" with the 996, but the quality of that car is no where near the level of the 993. But the bottom line is that Porsche greatly improved their bottm line and they are now the most profitable car company in the world. Interestingly enough, BMW is number 2.

I totally understand what you are saying. This is just one aspect of economics or in this case "value for money". But the bigger picture is the law of supply and demand. If the people are willing to pay the premium then the company will charge it. Until the point the demand is decreased will BMW either lower its cost ( doubtful ) or increase its quality / features. I compare this to free agency ( commentary : worst time that ever happen to sports ). For instance, do you think a major baseball pitcher is worth 125M to play 4 seasons of a 162 games. I think not. A free market is a good thing. As the other companies struggle to gain a reputation for quality, style, feature, performance and luxury. The consumer can only benefit and BWW will have to address these issues.

 

[sly]

I totally understand what you are saying. This is just one aspect of economics or in this case "value for money". But the bigger picture is the law of supply and demand. If the people are willing to pay the premium then the company will charge it. Until the point the demand is decreased will BMW either lower its cost ( doubtful ) or increase its quality / features. I compare this to free agency ( commentary : worst time that ever happen to sports ). For instance, do you think a major baseball pitcher is worth 125M to play 4 seasons of a 162 games. I think not. A free market is a good thing. As the other companies struggle to gain a reputation for quality, style, feature, performance and luxury. The consumer can only benefit and BWW will have to address these issues.

I agree.

 

[Steve176]

Remember perception is reality in marketing. However. overtime reality takes over. Look at the japanese cars. At one time they were thought of as junk. Then they started making quality cars and eventually the public realized this and they started to sell. BMW has always made quaility cars. If this is no longer the case they will start to see a drop in sales as people will go elsewhere. BMW's are still highly rated, consumer reports gives the 3 series high marks and is a recommended vehicle. The resale value of BMW's is amazing compared to other vehicles. ( I dont know one that is better). So at this point BMW is still at the top. Only time will tell. I think they are still preferred over the Japanese vehicles (3 series)