Competition for BMW

Chesty Bonds · Nov 14, 2004

I can't help but compare this automotive situation to that of the camera companies throughout the late 70s and 80s. The Germans were the undisputed camera-making champions. Nobody else came close to matching their accuracy or quality.

Then the Germans tried to get all comlicated and technology-laden. They made cameras that were so complex that they ceased to function appropriately. The Japanese copied the best parts of the German designs and left out all the complicated s*** that nobody used (or wanted).

What is happening now in the auto-industry is, for me, a direct reflection of the situation that i just explained. I really think that BMW will have to take stock and reflect about what they used to do so well otherwise they'll come to a bad end. I really love BMW but the ridiculous quality problems and questionable styling means that i just cannot accept the new models. Eventually, people will tire of having their $100K car constantly visiting the workshop for "software updates". Perhaps this will give BMW the kick in the arse that they need... Here's hoping.

Chesty Bonds · Nov 14, 2004

"Obviously you've got to avoid the sequential gearbox which is rubbish and ruins the whole thing."
-Jeremy Clarkson, on the the M3 SMG

Wallie I absolutely love your quote. It's just so true isn't it. I can't explain how angry I am with BMW that they offer 'performance' cars such as the M3 CSL and E60 M5 without a manual gearbox. It's absolute madness [mad]

I will NEVER buy an SMG BMW.

Nataku · Nov 14, 2004

Chesty Bonds said:

The transmission was especially design to handle the torque. First and second gear's reinforced housing is separate from the rest of the gear. Because of this the shift pattern would be different from a normal 5 or 6 speed manual. Accompanied by the 7 gears, it would be too difficult to remember pattern to run through the 7 gears quickly. This is easily handled by computer control - Motor Trend Dec 2004. Not that I like SMG, im a big MT guy as far is sports cars are concerned.

///M SPEED · Nov 14, 2004

Chesty Bonds said:

You wont, but many do. Unless you have driven the SMG II for over a month you really don't know how they perform up to speed. They handle quite well. Well enough that BMW has continued to improve upon it and offer it in some of their highest end automobiles. Don't let new technology scare you.

This is coming from a pure 3-pedal manual person. The SMG II works very well....

Chesty Bonds · Nov 14, 2004

Nataku said:

Yeah I completely understand why the M5's gearbox is an unusual design. The first two gears are set at the back of the gearbox because that's the strongest point. I just get really disappointed when these primary interfaces between the driver and his/her car is computerised so that, as the manufacturers generally put it, the driver can "concentrate on having their total attention delivered to driving". I just think it's a cop-out. Build a manual tranny that can handle the torque and the power. If this is too hard or too heavy then reduce the power. If BMW lose a few sales because their M5 isn't as powerful as the competition then so be it - if those people think like this then they don't understand the virtues of a top-line BMW. At least give the real enthusiasts the option of a real 'box and then the techno-appreciators can still have their SMG.

I know, deep down, though that the real enthusiasts like us are fighting a losing battle. [:(]

Chesty Bonds · Nov 14, 2004

///M SPEED said:

Yeah my friend has an SMG M3 and i really do admire the system for it's brutality and speed. I do accept that many people like the SMG system, and that's perfectly fine, but give us the option. I think the manufacturers are trying to phase out the manual gearbox over time so that we don't really notice.

I'm all for the advancement of technology, but NOT at the expense of the driving involvement (drive-by-wire, recirc. ball steering, brake assist etc, etc).

sly · Nov 15, 2004

Chesty Bonds said:

I believe that the camera analogy is right on target. Also, as Steve pointed out there is marketing and perception to consider. Many buyers have to have a German car and wouldn't even consider buying a Japanese car.

A fully loaded 530 with 220HP has a sticker in the upper $50s. Compare that car to the new $47K Acura RL which has 300HP, highly sophisticated AWD, advanced handling package, incredible audio system, highly sophisticated voice activated computer systems, and a fit and finish that is second to none.

The Japanese are making real strides in performance cars. It use to be that they built high quality, boring cars. In 2005 however there will be the Infiniti M45 and G35 and as I pointed out there already is the Acura RL which will provide potent competition for the $55K 530.

Chesty Bonds · Nov 16, 2004

Yeah that Japanese cars are really coming along well (isn't this always the way). I do think that all of the German carmakers will have to rely less on their brand image and go back to building cars in the way that they originally constructed this image.

TheBry · Nov 16, 2004

sly said:

We're not comparing apples to apples here. This really isn't a fair comparison. The Acura really and truly is a fantastically "equipped" car. I have no doubt about the quality, and it appears (by first impressions) the craftsmanship is superb. Feature for feature, they're really giving the Germans and Americans a run for their money. But there's more to this than features. When people buy BMW's whether they're aware of it or not, they're buying more than "features".

When you compare a marque like Acura to that of BMW, it's just not right. They're not in the same class. You're overlooking "heritage". Line up every BMW 3, 5 and 7 series from the past 20 years and you'll see something Acura (and others of it's ilk) can't touch -- evolution. BMWs have "evolved" over the years with restrained (albeit lately semi-restrained) design updates. No matter how much people hate the "Bangleized" designs of late from BMW, there's no arguing that the cars still retain cues that have been the hallmark of BMWs for the past two and a half decades: hoffmeister kink, kidney grille, quad headlamps just to name a few. Keeping these elements contributes to an inclusive community of drivers and enthusiasts (not to mention residual value).

You'd be hard pressed to name anything (not even the logo since that's only been around for 10 years or so) on the Acura that has carried the marque through the past couple of decades with regard to "heritage." Compare the current crop of Acura cars to those made 20 years ago and you'll see NO family resemblance... What guarantee do Acura drivers have that the car they buy today will have any resemblance to the cars Acura delivers 10 years from now?

The same can be said of Infiniti, and to a lesser degree Lexus. Of all these guys, I think Lexus (Toyota) is trying the hardest to offer design restraint so the marque evolves over time without radical changes that render previous models orphans to the family tree.

At the end of the day, it comes down to personal choice. People choose cars for different reasons. Let's all be happy (even excited) that we live in a time where there has never been more choice in a field of compotent machines. Let's just be careful to compare apples to apples.

Chesty Bonds · Nov 16, 2004

TheBry I do agree with your point that BMW have a remarkable evolution throughout their designs.

BUT, I do feel that if BMW continue to cynically offer cars that have sub-standard quality and reliability issues they will come unstuck. While the Japanese may lack the heritage and sporting edge that the BMWs have, they do offer superb build-quality and reliability. Before the Bangle monstrosities, BMW offered all of this and MUCH more. Why has this suddenly changed? That's my major gripe.

sly · Nov 17, 2004

Chesty Bonds said:

Chesty Bonds / TheBRY

The evolution argument has validity only if it improves the car. In other words if you are making a sub-standard product, what difference does it make how long that model has been around. Also, I don't agree with the assertion that comparing a BMW 5 seires to an Acura RL is not an apples to apples comparison. Why not? Comparing an RL to an M3 isn't valid, but comparing a RL to a 5 series is right on target IMO.

I judge a car on how well it performs and the value it offers at the present time. Whether or not the model has a heritage is immaterial to me.

Steve176 · Nov 17, 2004

Interesting comments concerning the BMW and other autos. I believe that TheBry has is right on the money. Purchasing a car is very much an emotional issue as well and that is what heritage brings. If we only purchased on quality and best value there would fewer car companies. The American car companies would have been done years ago. BMW is still preceived as a superior car, looks good and for the most part runs well. Its all about how you feel when driving the car. You still need to check the others out, but in the end, you go with you emotions.

Abdoman · Nov 17, 2004

I love Bimmers and always will, but I think everyone is kidding themselves to think that BMW has ever built an extremely reliable vehicle (like Honda or Toyota). BMW has never been know for reliablity and people that purchase them should know that (at least deep inside).

So truthfully, the entire package has never been there. BMW has always lacked in reliablility.

monaroCountry · Nov 17, 2004

The vette took a pounding on top gear (?), Jeremy hated the quality of the car especially the flexing fiberglass. He also hated the "ox cart" suspension. The GTO however is a totally different story. Jeremy loved the car, calling it a cheaper "m5" and recently had it compared with a 300C and a supercharged jag. The monaro (or GTO in america) won. As you might have already known the GTO wasnt built in america, its australian. The leather used in the GTO is the same quality as those used in top BMW's, the suspension in the GTO is also very reliable and works very very well. Look under the GTO and youll know what I mean when I say that the GTO has heavy suspension (designed for australian conditions). As for safety the monaro here in australia had a very good crash rating, i think it was a 4/5, which is similar to many BMW's. The ratings and tests used in australia is a mirror image of that used in europe, so its definately not dodgy.

I think that the GTO is a great value for money, especially the 04 gto's which are selling at 27K. The monaro (or gto) in australia is far more expensive, it is also more expensive in the UK.

monaroCountry · Nov 17, 2004

you could get the monaro video from racingflix
http://www.racingflix.com/getvideo.asp?v=620

monaroCountry · Nov 17, 2004

As you can see from these pictures, the GTO is definately not american, both in design and in quality.

It even uses a German system

monaroCountry · Nov 17, 2004

I would suggest that you try out all the cars in your list.

BMW-FW26 · Nov 17, 2004

I've seen a convertible BMW rollover 4 times on the Autobahn and both driver and passenger crawled out and walked away. That video would sell a BMW to anyone who was iffy.
Oh yeah, and I checked out the GTO for the fun of it, and I am suprised this car is being mentioned on a BMW website.

monaroCountry · Nov 18, 2004

Well the last boss of holden (makes the gto) was from germany [:D]

, if you see a monaro running around in germany with tuned everything then you know who it is [???1] [???1] .

epj3 · Nov 18, 2004

BMW-FW26 said:

I think I've seen that too!!! Was it silver??? I think it was on one of those "wildest police chases" shows.

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