To Dinan or not to Dinan... That is the question.

Akakubi · Aug 28, 2003

MrElussive said:

You got into the marketing promo again. Just because a company was around for a long time doen't measn that all of their products are good.

AEM makes good intakes, but all generic. I sell them.

There is nothing special about their designs, be that VW, or Honda or any other model.

Most of econoboxes come very restricted by the manufacturers (blame emissions, smoothness, reliability, fuel consumption, etc), hence any type of intake will give you impressive HP #'s.

You are incorrect in regards to the shielded models. They in fact do protect really well from the heat exposure. Look carefully at the designs and you'll see that the shiled sits flush with the hood liner and seals the filter completely. The exposed edges face the cold air flow only. I myself measured my ECIS with a temp gun after a long track session: engine was around 160°F, while the filter showed only 70°F, which was ambient temp. Properly designed shield (fiberglass or CF) will stop the heat very effectively.

I will only say that a "chip" works if someone does a head-to-head shootout of all of them on the same car under very similar conditions. Only then we will be able to tell the actual gains/losses, not the numbers put out by the manufacturers. You know how much a dyno run can vary, even on same car? Most of the times, the manufacturer will choose the highest number of the day to show to us and not the average. [fake] Some of the intakes (the ones that claim the most ridiculous HP gains) would often get the filter iced before the run, so that the air is as dense as possible and the dyno shows most HP.

No, I don't buy into the chip hype on the M54/S54 engines.

batfink · Aug 29, 2003

Hmmmm. I absolutely give a crap about my warranty. After reading everything here I've some thoughts. I ride motorcycles so speed and acceleration are totally taken care of there. I would never do anything that voids my warranty due to the fact that Bimmer's are SO BLOODY EXPENSIVE to work on. Coupled with the fact that by adding aftermarket engine parts you will start increasing the risk of some catastophic failure, and if that happens lets face it - that's not cheap. Personally, I like the feeling of knowing that if something goes boom it's gonna get fixed. Hopefully.

- Toby.

PuShAkOv · Aug 29, 2003

My AUCTION for REMUS ends today at 10:00 PM Eastern today... looks like it will go around $200 OFF retail.....

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33630&item=2429200651

dlynch · Aug 29, 2003

FWIW my wife bought a used 330 coupe with the options you described in your original post. It's a 2002. It's a free reving car with a great sound. It's fun to drive. Would we buy that stuff new? I don't know. Warranty? It does effect warranty. Should you buy it? Your call. Would we buy it new? Hard call.

Dave

joema · Aug 31, 2003

The reason Dinan performance chips don't give more HP than stock on an e46 is not because Dinan is stupid or because the other chip tuners are better. It's because the engine is already aggressively tuned from an ignition timing, fuel map, and valve timing standpoint (all a chip can change). Unlike the early 90s and before, current BMW engines have very sensitive knock sensors, air mass flow sensors, etc. This allows BMW to extract more power from the engine, leaving less for chip tuners.

Minus a safety margin, BMW already extracts all that's possible. It would be dumb for BMW to design the engine (which is very expensive and requires vastly more engineering than just programming the ECU) then leave power sitting "on the table" by not extracting the power via the ECU. Several years ago they had to leave some power in the form of additional design margins because the knock sensors, timing management, etc weren't good enough. In that period chip tuners could provide a little more. Now they can't.

There are only two ways to extract more power on an e46 via chip tuning alone: (1) eat into the already slim design margin (e.g. advance the timing more agressively) which ultimately impacts engine longevity, or (2) simply state misleading results based on selective dyno runs. Dinan doesn't do either one, which is why his results differ from other chip tuners. BTW I don't have Dinan stuff on my e46, nor am I affiliated in any way with Dinan.

Re emissions affecting maximum engine power, in general this is less a factor than you'd think. This is because the EPA FTP-75 test standard only requires emission controls while at part throttle and under about 3500 rpm. At wide open throttle, there's *no* EPA emission requirement, hence all US automakers can tune for max power. In theory they could even provide an alternate exhaust path that legally bypasses the catalytic convert at full throttle, but no manufacturer I'm aware of does that.

PuShAkOv · Aug 31, 2003

joema said:

The reason Dinan performance chips don't give more HP than stock on an e46 is not because Dinan is stupid or because the other chip tuners are better. It's because the engine is already aggressively tuned from an ignition timing, fuel map, and valve timing standpoint (all a chip can change). Unlike the early 90s and before, current BMW engines have very sensitive knock sensors, air mass flow sensors, etc. This allows BMW to extract more power from the engine, leaving less for chip tuners.

Minus a safety margin, BMW already extracts all that's possible. It would be dumb for BMW to design the engine (which is very expensive and requires vastly more engineering than just programming the ECU) then leave power sitting "on the table" by not extracting the power via the ECU. Several years ago they had to leave some power in the form of additional design margins because the knock sensors, timing management, etc weren't good enough. In that period chip tuners could provide a little more. Now they can't.

There are only two ways to extract more power on an e46 via chip tuning alone: (1) eat into the already slim design margin (e.g. advance the timing more agressively) which ultimately impacts engine longevity, or (2) simply state misleading results based on selective dyno runs. Dinan doesn't do either one, which is why his results differ from other chip tuners. BTW I don't have Dinan stuff on my e46, nor am I affiliated in any way with Dinan.

Re emissions affecting maximum engine power, in general this is less a factor than you'd think. This is because the EPA FTP-75 test standard only requires emission controls while at part throttle and under about 3500 rpm. At wide open throttle, there's *no* EPA emission requirement, hence all US automakers can tune for max power. In theory they could even provide an alternate exhaust path that legally bypasses the catalytic convert at full throttle, but no manufacturer I'm aware of does that.

Nice to have an expert on board..Welcome [thumb]

. How about lifting the REV and speed limit? Do DENAN chips do that?

MrElussive · Aug 31, 2003

Akakubi, I understand how you feel and your points make a lot of sense, and to each his own. But as for ASE Chips, it is my feeling that a company cannot be around for years selling BS products.
As for AEM, that company makes the best cold air intakes for VW's...maybe they do have a generic design, but it seems to work. Also, I still do not believe in the heat shield. The engine generates a lot of heat, and I don't think there is any escaping that. That is why I do not believe in heat shields and short air intake systems. I like the cold air intake systems that take in the air from your front bumper/spoiler.
As for Dinan products, Dinan claims that they cannot squeeze any more horsepower out of the car because BMW "milked the ECU for all it was worth" already. But, if you see their mods and their performance gains, they only guarantee those gains after you get the mod and the software download along with it. So I thinkt here is more room for tuning the E46 3-series ECU. Another example is that the US M3 puts out 333hp, and the Euro M3 puts out 343hp. I am sure our version puts out 10 less hp due to strict emissions laws, and therefore an aftermarket chip company can just take the ECU and tune it like a Euro M3, claiming a very legitimate 10hp power increase.
Either way, we all clearly have different opinions here, and none are really the wrong way. Part of the fun of modding your car is modding your car YOUR way and whatever makes you feel like the right thing to do is what makes it worth it...along with a Dyno Run or a test from the trusty old G-Tech Pro. [:D]

joema · Aug 31, 2003

PuShAkOv said:

Yes they do that, for whatever it's worth. I'm not an expert, just have read a few things and heard some lectures on the subject.

joema · Aug 31, 2003

MrElussive said:

The Dinan ECU doesn't by itself make the additional power. In the case of the Dinan S kit for the e46, it's the intake, larger throttle body, and exhaust that makes the power by improving flow. The ECU changes were needed to properly harness this increased flow. The stock ECU probably contained hard coded assumptions about throttle body diameter, etc.

The US M3 can't be chip tuned to a Euro M3. In the 1st place the Euro 343 is DIN hp, which is equal to 338 US SAE hp. Converted to equivalent hp they are only 5hp apart. Here's a conversion tool: http://www.statman.info/conversions/power.html. The small 5hp difference is due to the catalytic converters being physically closer to the exhaust manifold than on the Euro version (which also has converters). In a way it is due to emissions, but not because Euro cars have much lower standards. It's because the US system weighs more heavily start-up emissions. Some of this is mentioned in this article:

http://64.70.201.88/Roundel/2000/1100fea.htm

In general current European cars are now as clean as US cars. There are differences depending on whether you're talking about a US TLEV, LEV, ULEV car or Euro Stage I, II or III car. But in general they are very similar, which fortunately allows manufacturers to engineer a single "world" engine without having to design radically different emission control systems for different countries. Here's a good article with graphs that summarizes US, Japanese and Euro emission standards. See page 16:

http://www.worldenergy.org/wec-geis/global/downloads/NZConf/03.pdf

Akakubi · Aug 31, 2003

Pretty good info. [thumb]

Thanks for posting and welcome to the Board! [driving]

Akakubi · Aug 31, 2003

MrElussive said:

I agree, we all share our own opinions here, which is great as we can filter out useful bits. [thumb]

Engine heat is overrated. It's not that hot, at least not nearly hot enough to pass a properly designed heat shield. If the airfolw is optimized correctly, it won't matter where you get your cold air, bumper, or underbody, or wheel well, or headlight. The engine can only process a certain amount of airflow, everything else is wasted. Plus, aluminum absorbs heat a lot faster. The pipe sitting exposed in the bay will get very hot after prolonged driving. Try touching it.

What I believe the reason is for not so hightech (if you can call an intake hightech

) intakes for many car makes is the cost. You can get away with people being able to afford a $400-600 intake on a BMW, Benz, Lexus or Audi. But they will never sell one for a Honda, VW or Mazda. It's a lot cheaper to bend a pipe and attach a cone to it (that's why most of the intakes on the market are that design), than to have a FG or CF shield molded to fit the engine bay properly so it seals away the heat.

I will give it to AEM, however, that they spent more time testing their systems than others. Quality wise they are the best, followed closely by Injen, in my book. [wave]

MrElussive · Aug 31, 2003

Akakubi, that is great advice, I will take your word on that.
And by the way, I'm looking into purchasing an Injen Cold Air Intake for my car...they are a great company, correct?

Akakubi · Aug 31, 2003

MrElussive said:

Sure, any time. [:)]

Injen makes good quality intakes. They usually sound more aggressive than AEM. On my friend's Camry it was simply insane. [:D]

It made his engine sound like a V8, that's how loud it was. But on a Protege 5 the sound is less, so I think it depends on the car.

BTW, don't they make shielded ones for the G35? Some JDM maybe....

MrElussive · Sep 2, 2003

Akakubi, there are a few cold air intakes to choose from (Injen, Stillen, and I believe one other company). I think if I do go with a cold air intake, I will go with Injen, because of the reputable name and the price ($250 even). What do think?
But first, I think I am going to invest $600 into this ECU that just came out for my car.

mikev · Sep 2, 2003

lets face it its not just about speed its about the sounds the cars make. sports exhaust and induction kit is the first thing i do to any car i own. why d'ja think i pass the open window of the ricers changing gear so i can get the ssssshhhhhuuuuuuuppppppp sound just as i rocket off [:D]

its not just about beating them its about making them feal as small as there engines and as frail as the little old ladies that owned the car before them [:D]

[bmwkick] any hp gain even 1 or 2 is worth it cause it gives you "the edge"

Akakubi · Sep 2, 2003

MrElussive said:

The price is good for the intake. Go for it. If there is another system that comes out for your car in a couple of years, you can always swap. [:D]

Just enjoy the sound now! [thumb]

Has the ECu been tested well? What are the side effects? If it works as advertised, then by all means get it. Just pay attention to the possible problems so that your warranty is not messed up.

MrElussive · Sep 2, 2003

The ECU does several things. To sum them all up, it removes the 156mph electronically limited top speed, it raises redline from 6,600rpm to 7,100rpm, and it improves engine response throughout the powerband.

brahtw8 · Sep 2, 2003

MrElussive said:

Is the G35 really governed at 156 mph? That seems kind of high.

I would think that a non-governed G35 would not go much higher than 160 mph, although I guess it could have tall gearing in that 6th gear. Is your sixth gear less than 1:1?

dlynch · Sep 3, 2003

Dinan Questions?

Re: CAI...told today that the filter is not cleanable, and that the bumper must be removed to change the filter. This was at B-K Motors, bmw dealer. Is this right?

Re: Dinan throttle motor...told today that ours has failed. Dinan equipment (sufficient for Dinan 3) was installed by first owner of our 2002 bmw. Told warranty (Canada) is only 1 year. Doesn't seem right--is it?

Thanks in advance!

Dave L
Mississauga

Isaac13 · Sep 7, 2003

I'm new to the board so I'll try not to overstep my (new) boundaries. I know a little about the "ricers" and forced inductions systems. Any sort of modification will be far more effective on a forced induction system (ie supercharging or turbo charging) than it will be for naturally aspirated vehicles. Reason? With a turbo charger the ECU controls all the same stuff on a N/A car but also controls the waste gate (the device that lets exhaust bypass the compressor wheel to bleed off boost) which is very important as it can stay closed longer to keep the pressure up. Also with more air comes more fuel, so if the ECU changes the fuel mapping as well as the boost pressure, you'll have a great gain! The only problem is that since a lot of stock fuel systems have a fuel pump and injectors that are only good for a few extra hp. I've noticed that there are not many "chips" out there for F/I cars and here's my theory on that: since they could play with the boost (more air) then they would have to play with the fuel also. Stock fuel systems are only designed to go so far, and when you have more air than fuel you have a BIG problem (running lean which will melt a whole through the top of your piston, hence the inherent problem with "dry" nitrous systems). They would be better off to just skip the "chip" and sell larger injectors, fuel pumps, and a boost controller than attempting to have a chip that does all of it correctly with out making your engine a large expensive paper weight. Changing a "chip" on a FI car is way more impressive than a marginal ~5hp increase and changing a few characteristics about the throttle respone and such. The best thing about the N/A cars is the removing of the top speed governor. Other than that, you're simply not going to extract a whole lot of extra power from MOST N/A cars than what the stock ECU comes tuned to, except American cars, where they are SO inefficient anyway, that you can always squeeze some more power from it. As far as "ricers" go, i'd have a little more respect. I am a firm believer that BMW builds the best vehicles in the world, hands down, HOWEVER I can dually respect the engineering of "ricer" engines and components. Look at a honda civic Si for ex. 160bhp out of 1.6L engine... that's 100hp per liter of displacement. Look at the 1.8L BMW... 138hp... that come out to about 76.7hp, which is more effective? Also do some research on the DSM cars (eclipse, talon, laser) as they are VERY responsive to even the most mild of tuning. For $3K they can go from 210hp stock to the 350 range. Hell, for less than the cost of a good coilover system ($1500 as mentioned earlier) they can be belting out as much hp as an M3 for FAR cheaper. I'm not on either side of this argument and i'm NOT trying to start a fight here as I'm sure that I'll get bashed for these comments already, but when you get smoked by the 17 year old kid driving a 2G GSX in which he has less than $15,000 in the car AND the mods, you might feel a little more humble. Even if a 17 year old kid DID kick my can around with his GSX, i'd still rather have the M3 myself, it's far more aesthetically pleasing. Just my two cents

To Dinan or not to Dinan... That is the question.

Member

New Member

2000 Post Club

Member

New Member

2000 Post Club

2

New Member

New Member

Member

Member

2

Member

2

Active Member

Member

2

2

Member

Attachments

New Member