330i ZHP versus audi S4
- Thread starter bmwbozo
- Start date
Mr Elussive -
I hear you (now...lol)...yeah and I know your respect for the 3 series...and yes it is the standard bearer for the segment...Nissan has done a great/impressive job with the G35 - and it is a fine auto - but I agree - the 3 (particularly in ZHP trim) is really hard to beat. I do love that G35 growl off the line - but am not familiar with how it sounds winding out - wear that 3 series straight six is certainly music to the ears...love it!
I hear you (now...lol)...yeah and I know your respect for the 3 series...and yes it is the standard bearer for the segment...Nissan has done a great/impressive job with the G35 - and it is a fine auto - but I agree - the 3 (particularly in ZHP trim) is really hard to beat. I do love that G35 growl off the line - but am not familiar with how it sounds winding out - wear that 3 series straight six is certainly music to the ears...love it!
Wow!!!!
Well, I haven't been to this site in about the last 3 months...thats because I've been busy driving my new manual transmission ZHP sedan!!! I'm surprised at all the post since my last one. My first car which I drove forever broke down so I went out and got the ZHP. I never had the opportunity to test drive the audi A4 3.0 in a manual because the 4 dealerships that I visited DIDN"T HAVE ONE!!! Unbelieveable! A performance car??? that is rarely produced with a manual???
Since the e46 was approaching its model end, I was able to get below sticker because of incentives (obviously the car will still depreciate a bit rapidly since the new model is coming out) but I am completely happy with the result! I did opt to buy clear corners (I think the yellow on the car makes it less sporty). The car is sharp. Handles awesome and has great acceleration (I think that the M3 and possibly the S4 would have been too much--not to mention the gas and insureance prices). I accidently find myself traveling way too fast onthe freeway and have to crack a window so I can hear the speed since the car is so surefooted.
My only criticisms: The Clutch Delay Valve...I removed it! The car shifts way better especially between 1st and 2nd and allows me to rev match with much more precision. I am totally disappointed with the fact that BMW has added this component to the car...do they think that we don't know how to shift? I'm generally disappointed with the trend for more computers in cars. I think I would prefer a direct connection to throttle and brake AND CLUTCH (especially).
Anyways, Couldnt be happier with my decision, its an awesome car... Love the rear wheel drive and getting a little loose and having the stability control light go on. ..I think I'm going to wear the tires out a little fast...![[:)]](/images/smilies/smile.png "Smile [:)]")
Well, I haven't been to this site in about the last 3 months...thats because I've been busy driving my new manual transmission ZHP sedan!!! I'm surprised at all the post since my last one. My first car which I drove forever broke down so I went out and got the ZHP. I never had the opportunity to test drive the audi A4 3.0 in a manual because the 4 dealerships that I visited DIDN"T HAVE ONE!!! Unbelieveable! A performance car??? that is rarely produced with a manual???
Since the e46 was approaching its model end, I was able to get below sticker because of incentives (obviously the car will still depreciate a bit rapidly since the new model is coming out) but I am completely happy with the result! I did opt to buy clear corners (I think the yellow on the car makes it less sporty). The car is sharp. Handles awesome and has great acceleration (I think that the M3 and possibly the S4 would have been too much--not to mention the gas and insureance prices). I accidently find myself traveling way too fast onthe freeway and have to crack a window so I can hear the speed since the car is so surefooted.
My only criticisms: The Clutch Delay Valve...I removed it! The car shifts way better especially between 1st and 2nd and allows me to rev match with much more precision. I am totally disappointed with the fact that BMW has added this component to the car...do they think that we don't know how to shift? I'm generally disappointed with the trend for more computers in cars. I think I would prefer a direct connection to throttle and brake AND CLUTCH (especially).
Anyways, Couldnt be happier with my decision, its an awesome car... Love the rear wheel drive and getting a little loose and having the stability control light go on. ..I think I'm going to wear the tires out a little fast...
I know that this isn't one of the options, but the '05 G35 coupe with 298 HP for around $38K should be highly competitve with the listed cars. As I understand it the '05 G35 will be available in late December / early January. If you are wondering about the 298 HP and not 300 HP, apparently Japan imposes a high tax on cars with 300 and more HP.
A friend of mine who is a mechanic at Infiniti speculates that the 298 HP on the G35 is highly conservative. He can't wait to get an '05 G35 on the dynanometer to see what the real output is.
If you have to have a German product, I'd buy a used M3 if you want more performance, and an S4 if you prefer more luxury and refinement.
A friend of mine who is a mechanic at Infiniti speculates that the 298 HP on the G35 is highly conservative. He can't wait to get an '05 G35 on the dynanometer to see what the real output is.
If you have to have a German product, I'd buy a used M3 if you want more performance, and an S4 if you prefer more luxury and refinement.
Yeah CDV - I agree - has got to go...still have mine - but am planning to remove sometime next year maybe...
Glad your enjoying your ZHP BMWbozzo...me too...though looks like mine will be going into the shop tommorow - thermostat - getting no heat (car seems to be running OK - temp same as ever - about mid way up...?)...wonder if anyone else has had this issue...a bit disconcerting certainly.
While the ZHP doesn't have the push you back in your seat oomph of the S4 it does move out (deceptively) quickly. I absolutely demolished a new Maxima from a rolling start (tollbooth) - the other day...haven't had a go at a G35 or TL or such yet...but I'm certain I'd give them a good run for the money. Of course in the S4 I pretty much toy with these guys...and to give you an example of the difference - last week (from a stop) I pulled a car length [to about 90 MPH when I called it quits...local road...etc] on a modded EVO (don't know the mods - but it was all done up...and had lots of race stickers all over it - so I assume engine mods as well as everything else I could see...) - ...second EVO (out of 2) I've pulled on BTW...and I don't think I would have been able to at all keep with him in the ZHP. (I did have a great launch BTW...)...still ZHp is plenty fast - and like you said - gets up to and cruises along at speed (80s+) with ease...so much so I often find I'm doing 80+ where I thought I was going perahaps 60-70 (anyone know of any stealth V1 installs for the E46 3 series? - an outfit named "Toy Guy" does a great one for the B5S4 - mounts right on top of the steering colume using a modified stock Audi piece - with switch on armrest or stalk - way sweet - well integrated...and on the list of upcomming mods! - along with a short shifter - a must for the B5S4 I am fully comming to believe...).
And yeah Sly - I'll bet that 295hp G35 will be way hot. Hopefuly it will come with larger rear meats to handle the extra power. Nissan is certainly raising the bar again - and IMO - the G35 is way hotter then the 350Z (which BTW I also trounce pretty good in the S4 and would love a go with in the ZHP...lol). I'll be very interested in the new G35 specs as well and if it can run with my S4....
Glad your enjoying your ZHP BMWbozzo...me too...though looks like mine will be going into the shop tommorow - thermostat - getting no heat (car seems to be running OK - temp same as ever - about mid way up...?)...wonder if anyone else has had this issue...a bit disconcerting certainly.
While the ZHP doesn't have the push you back in your seat oomph of the S4 it does move out (deceptively) quickly. I absolutely demolished a new Maxima from a rolling start (tollbooth) - the other day...haven't had a go at a G35 or TL or such yet...but I'm certain I'd give them a good run for the money. Of course in the S4 I pretty much toy with these guys...and to give you an example of the difference - last week (from a stop) I pulled a car length [to about 90 MPH when I called it quits...local road...etc] on a modded EVO (don't know the mods - but it was all done up...and had lots of race stickers all over it - so I assume engine mods as well as everything else I could see...) - ...second EVO (out of 2) I've pulled on BTW...and I don't think I would have been able to at all keep with him in the ZHP. (I did have a great launch BTW...)...still ZHp is plenty fast - and like you said - gets up to and cruises along at speed (80s+) with ease...so much so I often find I'm doing 80+ where I thought I was going perahaps 60-70 (anyone know of any stealth V1 installs for the E46 3 series? - an outfit named "Toy Guy" does a great one for the B5S4 - mounts right on top of the steering colume using a modified stock Audi piece - with switch on armrest or stalk - way sweet - well integrated...and on the list of upcomming mods! - along with a short shifter - a must for the B5S4 I am fully comming to believe...).
And yeah Sly - I'll bet that 295hp G35 will be way hot. Hopefuly it will come with larger rear meats to handle the extra power. Nissan is certainly raising the bar again - and IMO - the G35 is way hotter then the 350Z (which BTW I also trounce pretty good in the S4 and would love a go with in the ZHP...lol). I'll be very interested in the new G35 specs as well and if it can run with my S4....
Roadhawk: The dealer is telling me that the '05 G35 will have 298 HP insstead of the 295 HP as reported. At least he tells me that's what is in their brochure. I'll have to get one and check it out. I know 3 HP doesn't mean much except from the perspective that the Infiniti boys are playing with the HP to get around Japanese HP penalties.
Old timers have told me that American manufacturers did the same thing in the early 70s. There was some Dodge Hemi 400 ci engine that substantially understated its HP to get by Insurance companies.
Old timers have told me that American manufacturers did the same thing in the early 70s. There was some Dodge Hemi 400 ci engine that substantially understated its HP to get by Insurance companies.
Interesting fact tho, Road and Track score numbers for the M3 vs S4 vs C32 gave more points to the m3 on track speed? Yet top gear claims that S4s are faster around the track? I dunno from what ive seen Top Gear isnt very consistent in their testing anyone see the S4 vs STi vs Evo test? The evo accelerated WAY past both of them when in fact the STi in a stragiht line is faster. I dunno tho road and track favored the M3 as a road carver. i dunno what the truth is but ide like kno whats faster around the track S4 or an M3. It seems like s4s weight and horrible weight to hp ratio would factor against it around the track, i dunno. Perfromance wize around the track if anyone knows let me kno.
zrated - I suspect that a lot might depend on the track and the driver(s). I've never driven (or even riden in) a e46 M3 - and I've only run against them out on the street (pretty much staight aways and such - no real twisties to speak of...[I'm 3-0 BTW...lol]) - so I really have no idea which might prove the best - though I suspect that the M3 would have the edge (on a dry track).
I do feel that - even with the front end weight - I can corner faster - in general - in my B5S4 then in my 330 ZHP...but its not universal - as I feel I can do certain corners faster in the ZHP. But I am really sold on the Quattro...combined with the S4 power it is such a hoot. For instance - its been raining all week here in the DC area and I had the ZHP out in it one day and I really had to watch it. I was spinning my wheels and had the tail end moving out quite a bit (OK - not always bad - but can be disconcerting in traffic...catches itself quite well though...).
At one point I pissed off an (older model) Acura TL driver - after he pissed me off...he did an off ramp (somewhat dangerous..in the rain - etc) cut in manuever (2 cars in front of me..causing me to have to slam my brakes - etc...) that I reversed (by zooming up on his right and cutting back in - in front of him...don't try this at home kids...lol) - and it really torqued him (got a taste of his own mecidine IMO) - so he tailgated me (while I had traffic in front of me) - then followed me for several miles on country roads - lots of tight twisties) and through a number of turns. While I could consistantly pull away from him on the straights (sometimes/often with some initial wheel spin) - in the (very sharp - 90 deg) turns and such I really had to slow down and he'd catch up (and could more or less match my speed through these turns (remember it was very wet)....he eventually gave up - but I basically couldn't lose this guy (I'd seperate - sometimes by 10+ car lengths - but he'd always reel me in...)...well - in the S4 he would have been hiiiiistory...very early on...
...and in general I find that in the rain and even very wet I hardly have to slow down at all - I can take very sharp corners - powering on - with no slip or wheelspin - and with great confidence - (in part perhaps the tires come to play - Yoko AVS Sports vs Michelin Pilot sports - I think the yoko's in general - have superior grip) - but mostly its the AWD and the ability to power on around the corners - and even in dry its pretty amazing.
Certainly the front can plow - but I only experience this at very high speed - and not in all circumstances certainly. Once - on a reverse angled corner (90 deg sweeping) - not sure if I said it right - left sweep where the road was angled to the right - not down to the left like you might find on a circle track - doing well over 100 - the S4 actually gave me this funny little wobble and jumped/skipped part way over into the next lane!!! (I really thought I was going to lose it...but still powering on - the wheels (re)grabbed and I basically continued my line! (which then swept back to the right...exhilerating! ...to say the least...lol)
While I find the ZHP tends to really grip and hunker down - and can do much of what I do in the S4 (and admittedly sometimes seems easier - especially on S type turns and really tight ones...it can be tossed about easier...) - in general I find there are many situations - corners where I take both cars - where I can zoom through substansially quicker in the S4 and with much less body roll/less tossing and in many ways less drama (unless you count the thrill of the speed)...again not sure hom much better the M3 is...but of interest is a piece in the Dec 2004 Bimmer magazine on the ZHP cabrio where they gush about the ride/handling of the ZHP (and compare it...favorably...to the M3...)...etc - a good review to check out...they also have an interesting take on the acceleration and gearing...where they are not so complimentary - but overall they love the ZHP (as do I....)
I do feel that - even with the front end weight - I can corner faster - in general - in my B5S4 then in my 330 ZHP...but its not universal - as I feel I can do certain corners faster in the ZHP. But I am really sold on the Quattro...combined with the S4 power it is such a hoot. For instance - its been raining all week here in the DC area and I had the ZHP out in it one day and I really had to watch it. I was spinning my wheels and had the tail end moving out quite a bit (OK - not always bad - but can be disconcerting in traffic...catches itself quite well though...).
At one point I pissed off an (older model) Acura TL driver - after he pissed me off...he did an off ramp (somewhat dangerous..in the rain - etc) cut in manuever (2 cars in front of me..causing me to have to slam my brakes - etc...) that I reversed (by zooming up on his right and cutting back in - in front of him...don't try this at home kids...lol) - and it really torqued him (got a taste of his own mecidine IMO) - so he tailgated me (while I had traffic in front of me) - then followed me for several miles on country roads - lots of tight twisties) and through a number of turns. While I could consistantly pull away from him on the straights (sometimes/often with some initial wheel spin) - in the (very sharp - 90 deg) turns and such I really had to slow down and he'd catch up (and could more or less match my speed through these turns (remember it was very wet)....he eventually gave up - but I basically couldn't lose this guy (I'd seperate - sometimes by 10+ car lengths - but he'd always reel me in...)...well - in the S4 he would have been hiiiiistory...very early on...
...and in general I find that in the rain and even very wet I hardly have to slow down at all - I can take very sharp corners - powering on - with no slip or wheelspin - and with great confidence - (in part perhaps the tires come to play - Yoko AVS Sports vs Michelin Pilot sports - I think the yoko's in general - have superior grip) - but mostly its the AWD and the ability to power on around the corners - and even in dry its pretty amazing.
Certainly the front can plow - but I only experience this at very high speed - and not in all circumstances certainly. Once - on a reverse angled corner (90 deg sweeping) - not sure if I said it right - left sweep where the road was angled to the right - not down to the left like you might find on a circle track - doing well over 100 - the S4 actually gave me this funny little wobble and jumped/skipped part way over into the next lane!!! (I really thought I was going to lose it...but still powering on - the wheels (re)grabbed and I basically continued my line! (which then swept back to the right...exhilerating! ...to say the least...lol)
While I find the ZHP tends to really grip and hunker down - and can do much of what I do in the S4 (and admittedly sometimes seems easier - especially on S type turns and really tight ones...it can be tossed about easier...) - in general I find there are many situations - corners where I take both cars - where I can zoom through substansially quicker in the S4 and with much less body roll/less tossing and in many ways less drama (unless you count the thrill of the speed)...again not sure hom much better the M3 is...but of interest is a piece in the Dec 2004 Bimmer magazine on the ZHP cabrio where they gush about the ride/handling of the ZHP (and compare it...favorably...to the M3...)...etc - a good review to check out...they also have an interesting take on the acceleration and gearing...where they are not so complimentary - but overall they love the ZHP (as do I....)
So it depends on the corners i guess. I dunno i thought AWD had the cornering advantage do to the grip it produces, but i dunno i guess RWD eliminates understeer so it might be faster that way, really interesting. I dunno i guess in the end ppl have to test drive both cars so see really whats better. Personally choosing between an S4 and an M3 is super hard.
@Roadhawk:
Dude are you a journalist? LOL....almost all of your post are like 3 or 4 paragraphs looooong! Not complaining though you have some good points and insight!
I personally like a M3......optically it is just a beautiful car, while the S4 needs you to spend an extra $3-4 thousand dollars for "big" wheels and suspension to give it that aggressive look......just my 2cents!
Dude are you a journalist? LOL....almost all of your post are like 3 or 4 paragraphs looooong! Not complaining though you have some good points and insight!
I personally like a M3......optically it is just a beautiful car, while the S4 needs you to spend an extra $3-4 thousand dollars for "big" wheels and suspension to give it that aggressive look......just my 2cents!
Well, I got the G35 Infiniti brochure and it lists the '05 G35 with manual transmission at 298 HP. It'll be interesting to see what kind of performance the 298 HP G35 can achieve. A well equipped G35 will cost around $36K and for that price you get 298 HP, a real slick 6 speed, 19" wheels, leather, Bose stereo system, limited slip differential, Infiniti's stability protection system, sun roof, home link transmitter and lots of other goodies.
Please help me understand how a 330 ZHP with 230 HP is worth around $8K more. There's an '04 330 ZHP on my dealer's lot for $43.5K and it doesn't even have leather.
Please help me understand how a 330 ZHP with 230 HP is worth around $8K more. There's an '04 330 ZHP on my dealer's lot for $43.5K and it doesn't even have leather.
No - not a journalist - though I do alot of writing...and if you'd ever meet me in person you might appreciate the relative brevity of my posts...lol
Can't disagree - M3 looks great right out of the box (BMW always does pretty good wheels and wheel sizing IMO)...but at least one can use the stock S4 wheels as winter wheels (got to have 'em)...and I also agree about the suspension - my S4 - lowered with H & R coilovers - rides so much tighter then the stock B5S4s its almost like not even the same car (IMO & with agreement by an aquaintance with a stock S4 who rode with me once...)
And Sly - regarding the new G35 - you have a good point - and it looks to be a real screamer - but the current G35 has quite a bit more horses then the (235 hp BTW) 330 ZHP and its not significantly faster...so there is more then straight HP (& even torque) to consider. Remember these are peak numbers and don't always tell alot about when the power is applied (and that BMW straight six really sings...). I find it very easy to use the power the ZHP has...and of course there is the weight factor...I don't know but I suspect the weight of the G35 is a bit greater. I would expect the new G35 to be faster and for it to handle well and do most everything well - and sure its a bit cheaper (though I got my ZHP through ED and paid little more then the G35 price you quote). Again Nissan is really onto something with this car - I agree. And it would be a tough choice (though I purchased a sedan as the 4 doors made more sense for us - and luggage room on the G35 coup is appaulingly tiny IMO)...so there might be a variety of factors to consider - but for many I expect the G35 will be a great choice.
Can't disagree - M3 looks great right out of the box (BMW always does pretty good wheels and wheel sizing IMO)...but at least one can use the stock S4 wheels as winter wheels (got to have 'em)...and I also agree about the suspension - my S4 - lowered with H & R coilovers - rides so much tighter then the stock B5S4s its almost like not even the same car (IMO & with agreement by an aquaintance with a stock S4 who rode with me once...)
And Sly - regarding the new G35 - you have a good point - and it looks to be a real screamer - but the current G35 has quite a bit more horses then the (235 hp BTW) 330 ZHP and its not significantly faster...so there is more then straight HP (& even torque) to consider. Remember these are peak numbers and don't always tell alot about when the power is applied (and that BMW straight six really sings...). I find it very easy to use the power the ZHP has...and of course there is the weight factor...I don't know but I suspect the weight of the G35 is a bit greater. I would expect the new G35 to be faster and for it to handle well and do most everything well - and sure its a bit cheaper (though I got my ZHP through ED and paid little more then the G35 price you quote). Again Nissan is really onto something with this car - I agree. And it would be a tough choice (though I purchased a sedan as the 4 doors made more sense for us - and luggage room on the G35 coup is appaulingly tiny IMO)...so there might be a variety of factors to consider - but for many I expect the G35 will be a great choice.
if you try to figure it out, only looking at what's on paper, it's hard to justify zhp's price. even on the road, it maybe hard to justify, but from everything i've read, and what i felt while driving, zhp is a better overall car than a g35. (for me anyway) but the 8 grand, or whatever exact figures comes out to is huge, and is enough to sway many buyers, and for that matter many editors at car mags.
i did enjoy the brute power of the g, but it felt harsh all the time. (the power's right there, but made the ride rougher than necessary. it really is matter of what you are looking for in your car, and you gotta go w/ what fits. and willing to pay the top dollar to have bavarian engineering go into your car.
i did enjoy the brute power of the g, but it felt harsh all the time. (the power's right there, but made the ride rougher than necessary. it really is matter of what you are looking for in your car, and you gotta go w/ what fits. and willing to pay the top dollar to have bavarian engineering go into your car.
I have a friend who has a BMW with the performance package and it's amazing how that car handles when it's driven by a someone who is highly skilled. My friend has an active SCCA racing license and participates in a lot of autocross events. For the average guy though, who doesn't have racing skills, high HP is a lot more fun. It doesn't take a lot of skill to rev a car up to 3K and drop the clutch and enjoy the acceleration that you get from a 300HP+ car.
