Ahhhhhh!!!!!!!
- Thread starter junglestylz
- Start date
junglestylz said:
Ouch! Showing once agaian the witty thought process of our local forum attorney at law!![[thumb]](/images/smilies/icon_smile_thumb.gif "Thumbs Up [thumb]")
A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing, particularly when accompanied by a total absence of tact.
![[;)]](/images/smilies/wink.png "Wink [;)]")
junglestylz said:
I do believe that he has found the logic behind not debating rationality.![[hihi]](/images/smilies/icon_smile_hihi.gif "Hi Hi [hihi]")
I do agree that there is a certain isolationist attitude in this country that, when combined with ignorance, can lead to the kind of view that he thought he found here. But, it is even more ignorant to think that his actions were anything more than a perpetuation of the same ignorance he was trying to criticize.
Did I mention I have an undergraduate degree in Philosophy?
![[8]](/images/smilies/icon_smile_8ball.gif "Retarded [8]"){kind=icon}
Brahtw8, sometimes you make my brain hurt.
brahtw8, sorry that i have to disagree on the point that only because we have higher prices for gaz in general we are used to it and don't feel the impact. We certainly do and believe me it hurts. hurts big time.
furthermore it is not right that loving diesels and not being in SUV that much makes the "out of pockets" are similar.
first, diesel in germany is cheaper than gaz, but the taxes are a multiple. that leads to the result, that a diesel only starts to make sense after approx. 16000 miles per year. in addition to that it is more expensive to maintain a modern diesel than an equal gaz engine.
second, many mass transportation systems as tram and busses sometimes are more expensive than to take the car. calculating the gaz i need plus the parking can end up cheaper than taking public transportation. of course you need to know where to go and park. and some cities are just incapable to handle traffic so you need the public transportation.
third, germans do not drive that much less. or let's say americans do not drive that much. i make more milaege here, than anyu other of my colleagues who rides alone. those that commute long ways go car pooling which kind of distributes the milaege. car pooling in germany is not yet that common.
and at the end of the day, it is the personal feeling you have, standing at the gaz pump watching the sales price climbing over 50 bucks and the tank is not full yet....that hurts biiiig time!!!! i tell you...i wanted to cry during my vacation!!! oh, and i have an avergae mpg of 21 or 22....that is very much US like!
No apologies necessary. I certainly appreciate the insight from those who have lived or do live on 'the continent' (and also those who have not) and I hope nobody here feels like they can't comment on what I post for fear of retribution, because I am trying to encourage open dialogue, not stifle it.
I didn't mean to imply that europeans don't lament expensive gas. Only that the topic was about an increase in gas prices and the european prices (which may be increasing as well, AFAIK the same companies use the same monopolistic pricing practices in europe) have been high for a long time. All I said was europeans were used to high gas prices, not that they don't dislike the high gas prices.
I do think that American vehicles get lower mpg on average. Corporate Average Fuel Economy (the government-imposed average that all car manufacturers must meet for their entire line of cars) is 27.5 mpg, has been since the mid-eighties. More importantly, we have a lot more trucks in the US (which are exempt from CAFE), as there are very few europeans who roll around in an F-150 supercab and really no comparable european-made vehicles in the 'personal truck' class (AFAIK).
A 3-series is a large car in a lot of european cities. We don't get the Audi A2 or even A3 in the US, but those types of cars and smaller ones are very common there, and a lot of those little hatchbacks are in the high thirty-low forty mpg range (albeit expressed in kilometers per liter).
I get 25-27 mpg in my 325i, and have been averaging about 22k miles per year over the last two years, plus 7500 on the NSX since May of 03. Not to be coy, but when you think of raw numbers in terms of distance travelled per year, are you converting the european kilometers/year to miles/year?
Don't get me wrong, I think the european way is more sensible. I would love to have high-speed trains in the US and could get used to the econo-hatches for commuting if I had to (and they let me keep a few nice cars for nice days.)
I didn't mean to imply that europeans don't lament expensive gas. Only that the topic was about an increase in gas prices and the european prices (which may be increasing as well, AFAIK the same companies use the same monopolistic pricing practices in europe) have been high for a long time. All I said was europeans were used to high gas prices, not that they don't dislike the high gas prices.
I do think that American vehicles get lower mpg on average. Corporate Average Fuel Economy (the government-imposed average that all car manufacturers must meet for their entire line of cars) is 27.5 mpg, has been since the mid-eighties. More importantly, we have a lot more trucks in the US (which are exempt from CAFE), as there are very few europeans who roll around in an F-150 supercab and really no comparable european-made vehicles in the 'personal truck' class (AFAIK).
A 3-series is a large car in a lot of european cities. We don't get the Audi A2 or even A3 in the US, but those types of cars and smaller ones are very common there, and a lot of those little hatchbacks are in the high thirty-low forty mpg range (albeit expressed in kilometers per liter).
I get 25-27 mpg in my 325i, and have been averaging about 22k miles per year over the last two years, plus 7500 on the NSX since May of 03. Not to be coy, but when you think of raw numbers in terms of distance travelled per year, are you converting the european kilometers/year to miles/year?
Don't get me wrong, I think the european way is more sensible. I would love to have high-speed trains in the US and could get used to the econo-hatches for commuting if I had to (and they let me keep a few nice cars for nice days.)
Especially for the monpolistic part and a statement given earlier (they rise it whenever they can, but nearly never lower it when they could) i have nothing else to say than "sad but true"
I wonder if i ever saw a F-150...with trucks you are really right, they sip quite a bit more than my bimmer
high 30 to low 40? that is a theoretical assumption that i never saw really happening. there are some cars out there that can achive that, but they are very very rare. and btw, very very expensive. the VW lupo 3L, a car that in reality makes an average of 47 mpg but costs as min. 15000 USD. And that is bone stock. That car is sold as much as a lotus elise. a lil' more but you get the picture.
for the rest of the cars, they go with short under 30 i would say. i had a golf, which is already a smaller vehicle even in germany, and i made an average mpg of 19-22 with it. it was a 1.8 liter engine.
i converted it...and i asked a buddy here, he does 20 kmiles on average a year. I did approx. 17 kmiles in germany, too. and i am living pretty close to work.
Anyway, my overall impression is that mobil live is way cheaper here. that is a fact that makes me wnat to stay here![[rofl]](/images/smilies/icon_smile_rofl.gif "ROFL [rofl]")
... i already start feeling the fear for the next time i will have to fill my bimmer again. that is 4% of my net salary each time.... ....ugly thought.
I wonder if i ever saw a F-150...with trucks you are really right, they sip quite a bit more than my bimmer
high 30 to low 40? that is a theoretical assumption that i never saw really happening. there are some cars out there that can achive that, but they are very very rare. and btw, very very expensive. the VW lupo 3L, a car that in reality makes an average of 47 mpg but costs as min. 15000 USD. And that is bone stock. That car is sold as much as a lotus elise. a lil' more but you get the picture.
for the rest of the cars, they go with short under 30 i would say. i had a golf, which is already a smaller vehicle even in germany, and i made an average mpg of 19-22 with it. it was a 1.8 liter engine.
i converted it...and i asked a buddy here, he does 20 kmiles on average a year. I did approx. 17 kmiles in germany, too. and i am living pretty close to work.
Anyway, my overall impression is that mobil live is way cheaper here. that is a fact that makes me wnat to stay here
... i already start feeling the fear for the next time i will have to fill my bimmer again. that is 4% of my net salary each time.... ....ugly thought.
Wadula said:
high 30 to low 40? that is a theoretical assumption that i never saw really happening. there are some cars out there that can achive that, but they are very very rare. and btw, very very expensive. the VW lupo 3L, a car that in reality makes an average of 47 mpg but costs as min. 15000 USD. And that is bone stock. That car is sold as much as a lotus elise. a lil' more but you get the picture.
for the rest of the cars, they go with short under 30 i would say. i had a golf, which is already a smaller vehicle even in germany, and i made an average mpg of 19-22 with it. it was a 1.8 liter engine.
Anyway, my overall impression is that mobil live is way cheaper here. that is a fact that makes me wnat to stay here ... i already start feeling the fear for the next time i will have to fill my bimmer again. that is 4% of my net salary each time.... ....ugly thought.
for the rest of the cars, they go with short under 30 i would say. i had a golf, which is already a smaller vehicle even in germany, and i made an average mpg of 19-22 with it. it was a 1.8 liter engine.
Anyway, my overall impression is that mobil live is way cheaper here. that is a fact that makes me wnat to stay here
... i already start feeling the fear for the next time i will have to fill my bimmer again. that is 4% of my net salary each time.... ....ugly thought.
There are advantages to living in the US and advantages to living in Europe. I hope to get an apartment in Amsterdam in a year or two, but I doubt I would move to Europe permanently, as their legal system is (with the exception of England), civil law based, not common law based like the US (excluding Louisiana).
the majority of diesel engines used is in the 2 - 2.5 litrer range. the big majority of VW diesel engines are 2 liters for golf and jetta (bora) and 2.5 in passat. Mercedes and BMW use 2 liter up to 4 liter.
and as i said, those small A2 make a good mpg, but they are just outnumbered to make a difference and way too expensive.
legal points you better discuss with someone else, i have no idea about that![[:I]](/images/smilies/icon_smile_blush.gif "Blush [:I]")
but i can sell you a steel tube if you want to
and as i said, those small A2 make a good mpg, but they are just outnumbered to make a difference and way too expensive.
legal points you better discuss with someone else, i have no idea about that
but i can sell you a steel tube if you want to
Wadula said:
the majority of diesel engines used is in the 2 - 2.5 litrer range. the big majority of VW diesel engines are 2 liters for golf and jetta (bora) and 2.5 in passat. Mercedes and BMW use 2 liter up to 4 liter.
and as i said, those small A2 make a good mpg, but they are just outnumbered to make a difference and way too expensive.
legal points you better discuss with someone else, i have no idea about that but i can sell you a steel tube if you want to
and as i said, those small A2 make a good mpg, but they are just outnumbered to make a difference and way too expensive.
legal points you better discuss with someone else, i have no idea about that
but i can sell you a steel tube if you want to
Besides the taxes, there is also a big difference in fuels. The sulfur content of the gasoline in Europe vs the gas in the US differs a great deal. Need I remind you of the BMW Nikasil engine problems. This is also why BMW can't market its diesels in this country, the sulfur content of diesel fuel is too high and they cannot pass EPA emission standards. To remove the sulfur costs money and they do it in Europe and pay at the pump. Our emission standards are still higher than the rest of the world so we have to use other means to lower tailpipe emissions. Americans do not have the extensive compact mass transit system of Europe. Politics aside, lifestyles are still different. European countries are much smaller and its residents rarely put 20-25K miles a year on a car. We travel coast to coast by car and do not need a passport for the 3000 mile journey. On the west coast of the US close to 90% of the oil is domestically produced and refined (AK & CA). Sulfur content of the fuel does vary a great deal from one area of the world to another. When I worked in the electric utility industry before retirement the lowest sulfur oil came from Venezuela and was desireable because of less emissions to comply with local, state. and federal standards.
The assumption that spain is so different is very right. Southern countries spain, italy and france are very popular for their small cars and big traffics. that is absolutly correct. everytime i was in milan i went crazy seeing all those little tiny burners flying through the streets. btw, they are very big in scooters. when the light turns green, the street gets flooded with these little bikes and after wards starts the armada of cars.
As far as germany is concerned, a golf is middle class. A 3 series is upper middle class followed by the 5er in upper class. what is a 3 series here? middle class i guess?
@rpj325i, interesting aspect. unfortunately i have no idea how much the refining costs differ between europa and us. what i know is, that the main part of german gaz prices is tax. about 70% is for the government. how much is the tax portion here? something i don't know too so i play the curious...
Boy, a lot happens during the day when you work for a living.
I think wadula made my point for me very well. He said exactly what my irrelavant drivel said, that just because it's been that way for a long time doesn't mean that it doesn't hurt. A lot. I would say you're the one who is tactless or, at best, insensitive, for saying 'but you guys are used to gas costing that much,' especially for someone who claims to appreciate the 'euro' lifestyle. Instead of empathy for your euro cousins you totally minimized the fact that they are paying so much more than we are every day. That's one reason I made the comment about stupid Americans, because we feel our relative pain of paying a bit more for fuel is bigger than than their having to pay two to three times as much all the time. To me, it doesn't matter how much vacation time they get or that it's their government doing the outrageous taxing. All that really matters is they have to pay out the a** for their gas and, no matter how long it goes on, it hurts. Hurts big time, according to wadula. There's a reason they don't have our obsession with SUVs and big trucks. We wouldn't drive them either if we had to pay a hundred bucks every week to fill a twenty gallon tank.
Now, despite popular belief, stupid Americans does not refer to any one person in particular but to the general mindset that Americans have regarding the world. That is, that we are at the center of it. This shows most when many of our countrymen visit other countries and display a total disregard for the culture and customs of the people they are visiting. That's so American it's cliche.
I have never been more embarrassed to be an American than when faced with the actions of my countrymen when abroad. While visiting Sicily I was having a nice dinner with friends at a local restaurant when there was a commotion a couple blocks away. Several police cars responded breaking the quiet night with their sirens. I later learned it was three US Marines on liberty who had gotten drunk and were brandishing knives. They were handcuffed and arrested, and left screaming obscenities at the local gendarmes. Stupid Americans.
By the way, that is exactly how I refer to myself when I visit 'the continent'.
I highly commend junglestylz for signing a contract to serve our country voluntarily if called on, but I would guess you did it because THE LAW REQUIRED YOU TO DO SO. And, since you don't appear to be in the service now, if you were called up in the draft you wouldn't be going in voluntarily, YOU WOULDN'T HAVE A CHOICE. As for myself, I voluntarily served my country in the armed forces for over six years without being drafted. That doesn't make me better than you, but my actions speak much louder than your words. Besides, a true patriot of this country would realize that the greatness of this country lies not in people mindlessly saying my country right or wrong, but in the people who are openly critical of the things they see are wrong with this country. I love this country just as much as any other American precisely because I have to freedom to call other Americans stupid. Would you tell Martin Luther King, who 35 years ago today gave his 'I Have a Dream' speech, to leave if he doesn't like it here? From what you've said here I would guess you would.
I have based all my comments on your statements, not on assumptions, and I make no apologies any of them.
Respectfully,
Steve
I think wadula made my point for me very well. He said exactly what my irrelavant drivel said, that just because it's been that way for a long time doesn't mean that it doesn't hurt. A lot. I would say you're the one who is tactless or, at best, insensitive, for saying 'but you guys are used to gas costing that much,' especially for someone who claims to appreciate the 'euro' lifestyle. Instead of empathy for your euro cousins you totally minimized the fact that they are paying so much more than we are every day. That's one reason I made the comment about stupid Americans, because we feel our relative pain of paying a bit more for fuel is bigger than than their having to pay two to three times as much all the time. To me, it doesn't matter how much vacation time they get or that it's their government doing the outrageous taxing. All that really matters is they have to pay out the a** for their gas and, no matter how long it goes on, it hurts. Hurts big time, according to wadula. There's a reason they don't have our obsession with SUVs and big trucks. We wouldn't drive them either if we had to pay a hundred bucks every week to fill a twenty gallon tank.
Now, despite popular belief, stupid Americans does not refer to any one person in particular but to the general mindset that Americans have regarding the world. That is, that we are at the center of it. This shows most when many of our countrymen visit other countries and display a total disregard for the culture and customs of the people they are visiting. That's so American it's cliche.
I have never been more embarrassed to be an American than when faced with the actions of my countrymen when abroad. While visiting Sicily I was having a nice dinner with friends at a local restaurant when there was a commotion a couple blocks away. Several police cars responded breaking the quiet night with their sirens. I later learned it was three US Marines on liberty who had gotten drunk and were brandishing knives. They were handcuffed and arrested, and left screaming obscenities at the local gendarmes. Stupid Americans.
By the way, that is exactly how I refer to myself when I visit 'the continent'.
I highly commend junglestylz for signing a contract to serve our country voluntarily if called on, but I would guess you did it because THE LAW REQUIRED YOU TO DO SO. And, since you don't appear to be in the service now, if you were called up in the draft you wouldn't be going in voluntarily, YOU WOULDN'T HAVE A CHOICE. As for myself, I voluntarily served my country in the armed forces for over six years without being drafted. That doesn't make me better than you, but my actions speak much louder than your words. Besides, a true patriot of this country would realize that the greatness of this country lies not in people mindlessly saying my country right or wrong, but in the people who are openly critical of the things they see are wrong with this country. I love this country just as much as any other American precisely because I have to freedom to call other Americans stupid. Would you tell Martin Luther King, who 35 years ago today gave his 'I Have a Dream' speech, to leave if he doesn't like it here? From what you've said here I would guess you would.
I have based all my comments on your statements, not on assumptions, and I make no apologies any of them.
Respectfully,
Steve
A couple of additional comments here that no one mentioned is that those little diesels and gas powered cars in Europe cannot be sold in this country. Our emissions and safety requirements eliminate many from importation. BMW stopped importing diesels here because they were not selling and now can't export their excellent diesels to this country because they cannot get EPA approval. A large factor here is the sulfur content of both our gas and diesel fuels. Lets move on to something else.
I fail to understand how it is you glean the above from my statement that they are used to high gas prices, which is of course true. That statement does not contain the mindless nationalistic bent that you ascribe to it, nor was it intended to comment on whether they feel the impact of the gas prices, despite being accustomed to the high price.
If you would take the time to listen to what I am saying, you would realize that we have a very similar world view, but apparently that has been lost in the shuffle. That is too bad, but inevitable given that the possibility you read too much into it is apparently not an option that you are willing to consider, let alone accept.
Give it another look with a mind that does not care about winning the argument.
![[:)]](/images/smilies/smile.png "Smile [:)]")
If you would take the time to listen to what I am saying, you would realize that we have a very similar world view, but apparently that has been lost in the shuffle. That is too bad, but inevitable given that the possibility you read too much into it is apparently not an option that you are willing to consider, let alone accept.
Give it another look with a mind that does not care about winning the argument.
is that so? american security standards are higher? unfortunately i have no literature that can make any statement on that, but in my humble opinion, it is europe that has the higher standards. since when does the US have a lwa that airbags have to be in new cars? i don't know, or is there a law stating that? this is a very interesting topic now, as i can learn alot. ![[:D]](/images/smilies/biggrin.png "Big Grin [:D]")
This is a very interesting thread for me. i can learn a lot about american car culture and regularities. keep on informing me guys
Diesels have emissions problems that keep them from coming in? how's that? take a smell of the diesels that run around here and compare that to the smell of a VW diesel. result: no smell at VW...no dust, no smell, nothing...furthermore it is a european car manufacturer who invented a system that eliminates 99% of the diesel particels. that thing is cleaner than a gaz engine!!!
sorry but the only reason why diesel are not sold here is because the market itself does not want them. no small cars and no diesels. prejudices like "diesel stink" and "small cars are not safe" are the key reasons why those cars are not being sold.
This is a very interesting thread for me. i can learn a lot about american car culture and regularities. keep on informing me guys
Diesels have emissions problems that keep them from coming in? how's that? take a smell of the diesels that run around here and compare that to the smell of a VW diesel. result: no smell at VW...no dust, no smell, nothing...furthermore it is a european car manufacturer who invented a system that eliminates 99% of the diesel particels. that thing is cleaner than a gaz engine!!!
sorry but the only reason why diesel are not sold here is because the market itself does not want them. no small cars and no diesels. prejudices like "diesel stink" and "small cars are not safe" are the key reasons why those cars are not being sold.