AWD or not to AWD

[xmas63]

...RWD is...the worst in snow

Mr. E., you've characterized RWD as being significantly inferior to AWD in snow conditions, but I gotta ask you: is your conclusion based on your personal experience with a RWD 3-series with snow tires, and personal experience with an AWD 3-series?

When someone is looking to make an i vs xi buying decision, I think they need to consider the fact a RWD 3-series with winter tires handles awesome in the snow (honestly, I feel like I can drive through just about anything, and there's never been a situation where I thought, "Gee, I wish I had better traction"), and they need to consider that they are sacrificing fair-weather performance and handling (something that can really only be appreciated by someone who has owned BMW's both with and without a sport package.)

That said, if someone doesn't care about "the driving experience", or if AWD provides some psychological benefits (e.g. "instill[ing] the most confidence when driving in the rain"), by all means AWD is the way to go. But I think your argument may be making some assumptions about what is or isn't important to the individual.

 

[MrElussive]

I stand by what I said, that RWD is the worst drivetrain for the snow. This doesn't mean that RWD is a hazard for driving in the snow. According to other members on the board, a RWD 3-series with snow tires gets the job done just fine. But RWD vs FWD vs AWD, I still say RWD is the worst. But here is my exmaple: Take a RWD car with a 50:50 weight distribution (and this is at BEST...many RWD cars are still front-heavy, which makes things even worse), a typical FWD car that is front-heavy, and a typical AWD car that is either front-heavy or 50:50 weight distribution. Give all three cars the same set of tires (all-seasons or snow tires, doesn't matter, as long as all 3 cars have the same tires), and take them out in a snow storm. I guarantee you that the RWD vehicle will be the least-capable in the snow, the FWD car will be second-best, and AWD will be the absolute best. This is just common fact. During a snow storm, you'll be accelerating gently, so there will be minimal weight transfer to the rear, so the RWD vehicle only has that 50:50 weight distribution. A FWD car will have better traction as there is minimal weight transfer to the rear during light acceleration and FWD cars are front-heavy (which is mainly why they are FWD) so the added weight on the front tires really helps them out. A AWD car will have the best traction because all four wheels are being powered, giving you the most traction for snowy conditions. AWD helps you out during acceleration AND during engine braking, as you have all four wheels turning for you.

I don't say this only based on logic, I say this based on experience. I have two ATV's, one is full-time 4WD and the other is selectable 2WD/4WD (RWD in 2WD mode). I have experimented with them quite a bit during snow storms. As a family, we also have 5 cars and we have gone through many cars with different drive systems. My parents do not like to invest in snow tires as all of our cars are leased, and through living & learning, we've learned that the best setup for all-weather drivability is a car with AWD and all-season tires. RWD has always proved to be an absolute disaster for us (since we never purchase snow tires) and FWD was only "okay". My Jetta came with a set of 15" all-season tires and I changed them to 17" low-profile performance all-seasons (and I changed the rims as well, obviously). I never had any problem getting around in the snow with my Jetta, whether I had the 15" wheels or the 17" wheels, but when it came to getting my long and uphill driveway, my Jetta would only get up it when there was light snow. Any deep snow or ice and my Jetta was completely worthless and we had to hookup the two quads to the tow hook in the back and drag it up.

 

[frolf]

most the posts were too long for me to read this late at night, but i will throw in a little side note.

there are 3 distinct types of AWD that come to mind
1. AWD with an RWD bias (audi comes to mind)
2. AWD with an FWD bias (subaru comes to mind)
3. AWD straight up (not sure, but its the basis of the AWD theory)

 

[MrElussive]

frolf, Audi's Quattro AWD is not biased at all. It is a 50/50 split between the front and rear wheels and is a very close setup to typical 4WD, which is why Quattro provides so much traction. BMW uses a rear-drive biased AWD system (62% rear/38% front) as do Mercedes and Porsche (95% rear/5% front, under normal conditions...transfers more power to the front during slippage).
Subaru uses different AWD systems depending on each car and transmission. But all manual transmission Subaru models (such as the WRX in stick) feature 50%/50% distribution of power until slippage occurs.
You can find a lot of FWD-based AWD systems in SUV's such as the Lexus RX300 and the Acura MDX (I believe the RX300 is completely FWD until slippage occurs).

 

[frolf]

hmmm, as i just told you on AIM, i can't remember reading anything about subaru's distro bias, and the audi thing came straight from the audi rep's mouth, but i can't say i've read anything in favor, or not in favor of what i posted.

but another RWD bias AWD car is Lamborghini's awd system (old and new one)

 

[xmas63]

I stand by what I said, that RWD is the worst drivetrain for the snow. This doesn't mean that RWD is a hazard for driving in the snow. According to other members on the board, a RWD 3-series with snow tires gets the job done just fine. But RWD vs FWD vs AWD, I still say RWD is the worst. But here is my exmaple: Take a RWD car with a 50:50 weight distribution (and this is at BEST...many RWD cars are still front-heavy, which makes things even worse), a typical FWD car that is front-heavy, and a typical AWD car that is either front-heavy or 50:50 weight distribution. Give all three cars the same set of tires (all-seasons or snow tires, doesn't matter, as long as all 3 cars have the same tires), and take them out in a snow storm. I guarantee you that the RWD vehicle will be the least-capable in the snow, the FWD car will be second-best, and AWD will be the absolute best. This is just common fact. During a snow storm, you'll be accelerating gently, so there will be minimal weight transfer to the rear, so the RWD vehicle only has that 50:50 weight distribution. A FWD car will have better traction as there is minimal weight transfer to the rear during light acceleration and FWD cars are front-heavy (which is mainly why they are FWD) so the added weight on the front tires really helps them out. A AWD car will have the best traction because all four wheels are being powered, giving you the most traction for snowy conditions. AWD helps you out during acceleration AND during engine braking, as you have all four wheels turning for you.

I don't say this only based on logic, I say this based on experience. I have two ATV's, one is full-time 4WD and the other is selectable 2WD/4WD (RWD in 2WD mode). I have experimented with them quite a bit during snow storms. As a family, we also have 5 cars and we have gone through many cars with different drive systems. My parents do not like to invest in snow tires as all of our cars are leased, and through living & learning, we've learned that the best setup for all-weather drivability is a car with AWD and all-season tires. RWD has always proved to be an absolute disaster for us (since we never purchase snow tires) and FWD was only "okay". My Jetta came with a set of 15" all-season tires and I changed them to 17" low-profile performance all-seasons (and I changed the rims as well, obviously). I never had any problem getting around in the snow with my Jetta, whether I had the 15" wheels or the 17" wheels, but when it came to getting my long and uphill driveway, my Jetta would only get up it when there was light snow. Any deep snow or ice and my Jetta was completely worthless and we had to hookup the two quads to the tow hook in the back and drag it up.

Mr. E, I can't touch your logic---it is completely sound---but it doesn't exclude the possibility that a RWD E46 w/ snows may perform comparably in most driving situations to an AWD w/ all-seasons. By saying that "RWD has always proved to be an absolute disaster for us" or that "RWD is the worst", it leads one to believe that there will be a significant difference between a RWD E46 w/ snows and an AWD E46, and it's this implication that, IMHO, is not true. If someone is looking for advice on what to get (RWD vs AWD), I think they should know that (a) AWD will provide the best handling in snowy conditions; (b) RWD with proper snow tires will handle great in the snow, and will likely perform well in any snow condition they encounter for as long as they own the car; and (c) getting AWD will adversely affect the performance and "sportiness" of the car's handling (due to the lack of the sport-tuned suspension, even if you buy the sport package), and do so to a level that may be significant to some drivers. This doesn't really contradict anything you're saying, but I think it does provide another important side to the story for someone who's looking to make an informed decision.

 

[first5ny]

Mr. E,

I was referring to the 5 series. I can't remember where I heard it; maybe from the sale person at my dealer. He claims AWD for the 5 is coming soon. I'm not sure. It could be a good way to increase sales. Face it lots of soccer moms are buying the audi quattro. BMW would like someof that business. And as long as they keep the RWD platform, the keep the enthusiast happy. Win-win situation.

 

[NYDrew]

Awesome thread guys! I have learned soo much. Winning a big settlement soon and will have pick of any model I wish to have. The new 5 looks real good. The 6 is incredible. But the 330 XI might help me rest asure that my wife is going to make it home a little more safely during her 30 mile commute (1 way) home during these nasty Upstate New York Winters. The government plows aren't always on her schedule and knowing that she has two extra tires gripping that I-90 during the storm is good.
Look, we're 30 and 35 yrs old. Kids on the way....racing around in the summer isn't practical anymore for us. I think i'll opt for the AWD all year around.

 

[Roadhawk]

Well congrats NYDrew - sounds like the 330ix will be a good choice for you - other interesting options to consider might be an Audi S4 (sedan or Avant) or a Volvo S60/70 (again in either wagon or sedan form). Both of these have quite nice AWD systems as well as pretty hard core power...still - I would recommend winter snows (Vredstein Wintracs Vs specifically) for any serious (safe) winter weather driving (ie upstate NY).

I have to also add that I agree with Mr Ellusive's take on this. I've driven AWD, FWD & RWD in the snow - and I don't have any problems with either (yet to drive a BMW 3 yet in the snow however...). Without a doubt the AWD - with winter snows - performs in a manner that is unattainable with either RWD or FWD - and its not even close - believe me. That being said I think that FWD is easier to deal with snow as the weight over the front wheels and the ability to move your powered wheels out of track and also to point & go (pull out vs push) makes FWD an easier go in the snow. Still - I've also had success with RWD - though you must work harder and watch for getting into situation where you might get stuck - but with snow tires (and some weight in the tail) RWD can mange as well - IMO (we'll see now about the BMW 3...I'm not too worried [and my Audi will still certainly be the winter car of choice - besides being supremely capable its just such a blast in the snow! no worries...])

 

[ksbmwers]

[No message]

 

[Lisa]

Why because your girl got a mini cooper? (Re: Xyrium's suggestion to the girl that had the Honda)

 

[MrElussive]

Why because your girl got a mini cooper? (Re: Xyrium's suggestion to the girl that had the Honda)

Hell yeah !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

 

[Steve176]

We have been getting quite a bit of snow up here in northern Mich lately. I have a SUV that can switch from rwd to awd to 4wd. Comparing the drive is amazing, the awd and the rwd drive about the same, the 4wd is far superior. I don't think the awd is that big of a deal. Buy the car that drives best to you. The reason so many SUV's are in the ditch is that people feel they are safe with the 4wd and awd and that obviously is not the case.

 

[sly]

Since the point of the thread was to address the purchase of a vehicle for his girl who is concerned with snow, I highly doubt the "claimed" benefits of RWD will be as apparent to her as the clear benefits of AWD in the inclement weather. Even the original poster admitted such and he's a RWD BMW driver.

Anyway, the next time an STi blows by you in a straightaway, then on some twisties, come on back and talk to me...[shake]

I've owned Audis with quattro and RWD BMWs and unless I lived in a snow belt, I'd stick with RWD. Of course if you live in areas where it snows, it's essential that you buy snow tires for your high performance RWD car. For most cars you can get snow tires mounted on rims for about $700 to $800. Keep in mind that AWD adds at least $1800 to the price of a vehicle. So for half the price you get snow handling capabilities that are comparable to AWD cars on all season tires.

My experience in driving with AWD and RWD cars is that AWD cars have an advantage over RWD cars with snow tires only when driving up snow covered hills. One fact that drivers of AWD cars learn from the school of hard knocks is that AWD cars provide no benefit when driving down hills. So the RWD with snow tires has superior handling over AWD cars with all season tires when going down hills. On level roads I got excellent handling from both AWD cars and RWD cars with snow tires.

So if I lived in an area like Maine or Alaska or upstate NY, I'd probably buy a AWD vehicle and get snow tires for the winter. That way you have the best of all worlds. Now of course if I lived in one of those areas, I wouldn't buy an Audi A4 or A6 with quattro. I would instead buy a vehicle with a lot of ground clearance.

So bottom line is that IMO, AWD is unecessary for the vast majority of the US. A RWD car with snow tires will give you great traction in the snow. As far as performance is concerned, it's important to remember that AWD adds weight. I believe that Audi's quattro adds about 180 lbs. That's one of the reasons that the RWD M3 outperforms the S4.

 

[JGM3E3632]

i think AWD sucks. i prefer RWD to any type of drivetrain. You just don't get the feel, fun, and pleasure that you get from RWD. just my .02 cents.

 

[MrElussive]

I've owned Audis with quattro and RWD BMWs and unless I lived in a snow belt, I'd stick with RWD. Of course if you live in areas where it snows, it's essential that you buy snow tires for your high performance RWD car. For most cars you can get snow tires mounted on rims for about $700 to $800. Keep in mind that AWD adds at least $1800 to the price of a vehicle. So for half the price you get snow handling capabilities that are comparable to AWD cars on all season tires.

My experience in driving with AWD and RWD cars is that AWD cars have an advantage over RWD cars with snow tires only when driving up snow covered hills. One fact that drivers of AWD cars learn from the school of hard knocks is that AWD cars provide no benefit when driving down hills. So the RWD with snow tires has superior handling over AWD cars with all season tires when going down hills. On level roads I got excellent handling from both AWD cars and RWD cars with snow tires.

So if I lived in an area like Maine or Alaska or upstate NY, I'd probably buy a AWD vehicle and get snow tires for the winter. That way you have the best of all worlds. Now of course if I lived in one of those areas, I wouldn't buy an Audi A4 or A6 with quattro. I would instead buy a vehicle with a lot of ground clearance.

So bottom line is that IMO, AWD is unecessary for the vast majority of the US. A RWD car with snow tires will give you great traction in the snow. As far as performance is concerned, it's important to remember that AWD adds weight. I believe that Audi's quattro adds about 180 lbs. That's one of the reasons that the RWD M3 outperforms the S4.

Really good points, although there are two things about AWD I would like to state that I may have stated before (because this debate comes up a lot) but I think are important to AWD.
1.) If the AWD car is a manual transmission car, then when you are going down a hill and you downshift, you have the compression from all four wheels. Iif you go down a hill and downshift in a RWD car, you only get the compression from the rear wheels. No big deal if both cars are equipped with snow tires, but 4 is better than 2.

2.) Here is an important point: when the going gets tough (deep snow), an AWD car rides and gets traction "on top of" the snow, whereas a RWD car will "sink in". So when driving through deep snow, it is my own statement that an AWD car with all-season tires will do better than a RWD car equipped with snow tires.

I would also like to encourage anyone with a RWD BMW w/snow tires to come and try getting up my driveway and we'll see how far the car gets. Unfortunately, my car is sitting on the street as we speak because of the recent snowfall we had. My driveway has light snow and is slightly iced over....I think in this case, if I had snow tires, I should be able to get up it. But if it was a regular snow storm that has accumulated quite a bit, I don't think my RWD car would stand a chance.

I should actually take a picture of how it looks so you guys see for yourselves...I always use the "my driveway" example but nobody can truly understand what I'm talking about.

 

[Average Jae]

I should actually take a picture of how it looks so you guys see for yourselves...I always use the "my driveway" example but nobody can truly understand what I'm talking about.

you know, you said it yourself, "nobody believes you." and you do always mention your drive way in relation to the snow accumulation, ^^ i'd like to see it also. add some cute chicks in the pic too while you are at it

 

[sly]

Really good points, although there are two things about AWD I would like to state that I may have stated before (because this debate comes up a lot) but I think are important to AWD.
1.) If the AWD car is a manual transmission car, then when you are going down a hill and you downshift, you have the compression from all four wheels. Iif you go down a hill and downshift in a RWD car, you only get the compression from the rear wheels. No big deal if both cars are equipped with snow tires, but 4 is better than 2.

2.) Here is an important point: when the going gets tough (deep snow), an AWD car rides and gets traction "on top of" the snow, whereas a RWD car will "sink in". So when driving through deep snow, it is my own statement that an AWD car with all-season tires will do better than a RWD car equipped with snow tires.

I would also like to encourage anyone with a RWD BMW w/snow tires to come and try getting up my driveway and we'll see how far the car gets. Unfortunately, my car is sitting on the street as we speak because of the recent snowfall we had. My driveway has light snow and is slightly iced over....I think in this case, if I had snow tires, I should be able to get up it. But if it was a regular snow storm that has accumulated quite a bit, I don't think my RWD car would stand a chance.

I should actually take a picture of how it looks so you guys see for yourselves...I always use the "my driveway" example but nobody can truly understand what I'm talking about.

MrElussive: Let me address your points.

1. I've lived in a very hilly area for the last 25 years so I've had a lot of experience going up and down snow covered hills. Your point about downshifting sounds logical to me but I would never downshift going down a snow covered hill . Unless you rev match perfectly there's too big of a chance of inducing too much braking action and getting a bad result. I select the appropriate gear, usually 3rd at the crest of the hill and begin my slow decent. I'll touch the brakes only lightly when my speed gets a little too fast.
2. Agreed. An AWD vehicle with high ground clearance and snow tires is far superior to a RWD car with only snow tires.
3. Actually it's a lot easier driving through four to five inches of fresh snow then a light snow that is iced over. When driving up snow covered hills where I live, I always try to drive over fresh snow and avoid where possible the areas that have been packed down by other cars and have probably become somewhat icey. Unless you live on a mountain, I don't think it would be hard driving up your driveway with a RWD car with snow tires.

 

[MrElussive]

Jae, I'll try my best with the girls, lol.

sly, interesting points. I really would like to see just how good an RWD car with snow tires really is. I have a lot of faith in RWD + snow tires being a VERY practical solution for winter driving, but personally, I love AWD in the dry and I love it even more in the wet/snow. As for the downshifting, I remember when I had my Jetta, I used to downshift all the time when driving in the snow. Just blip the throttle, downshift, and let the clutch out gently. I would do this on downhills and it worked quite well, the extra compression was nice for slowing me down in the snow (as opposed to the brakes which would lock up the rear wheels if it was too slippery). On my Jetta I had a set of Continental ContiExtremeContacts (Ultra High Performance All-Seasons) in size 225/45-17 all around and they were great in the snow.

I always use my driveway as an example because it is like the "ultimate test" of how good a car and its setup (AWD, 4WD, 2WD, snow tires, all-seasons, etc.) really is in the snow. It's also cool to practice winter driving skillz on...you can go down it to practice proper braking and control in the snow (the driveway curves to the left, so it makes it interesting) and you can go up it to practice throttle modulation and shit. Both ways are demonstrsations of "when the going gets tough".

 

[sly]

MrElussive: Actually I appreciate my Audi with quattro the most when it's raining. Even in the hardest rain storms, my Audi TT feels absolutely secure and stable. Quattro and Michelin Pilots make a good combination. Now in the snow, the traction is only adequate with the Pilots probably because the tires are so wide. When the snow is heavy I drive my teenage son's FWD Hyundai. His Elantra does great in heavy snow with good all season radials.