BMW/Benz Vs Lexus/Infiniti Debate...
- Thread starter Zeratul
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I have had (and still do have) numerous minor problems with my vehicle and it always seems like rocket science for Infiniti dealerships to get the parts in and find the TSB on how to fix the issue. One thing I have learned is that all cars have problems, but I'd rather have a car from a copmany who knows how to deal with the problems within a decade
You can't blame Infiniti for that one. Service will vary from Dealer to Dealer, be it Infiniti or BMW. The first BMW Dealer that I went to sucked, but I don't hold BMW responsible. It just so happens that the Infiniti Dealer I go to provides excellent service, but I don't doubt for a second that there are some that provide lousy service. As far as how quickly Infiniti responds to problems, I invite you to go their web site to view the TSBs. It seems as though they are staying on top of issues to me.
I sincerely hope that the problems I had with my M3 are a thing of the past and based on the comments by present E90 owners, it seems like BMW is headed in the right direction. During my lifetime I've owned four BMWs and I'll always look at BMW as the leader in performance sedans. There's no question that the success that BMW has had with their performance cars has generated many immitataors. Acura, Lexus, and Infiniti all make cars aimed directly at the 3 series. This competition IMO can't but help to improve the breed.
You can't blame Infiniti for that one. Service will vary from Dealer to Dealer, be it Infiniti or BMW. The first BMW Dealer that I went to sucked, but I don't hold BMW responsible. It just so happens that the Infiniti Dealer I go to provides excellent service, but I don't doubt for a second that there are some that provide lousy service. As far as how quickly Infiniti responds to problems, I invite you to go their web site to view the TSBs. It seems as though they are staying on top of issues to me.
I sincerely hope that the problems I had with my M3 are a thing of the past and based on the comments by present E90 owners, it seems like BMW is headed in the right direction. During my lifetime I've owned four BMWs and I'll always look at BMW as the leader in performance sedans. There's no question that the success that BMW has had with their performance cars has generated many immitataors. Acura, Lexus, and Infiniti all make cars aimed directly at the 3 series. This competition IMO can't but help to improve the breed.
I'll agree with your statement if you put the word performance in your descriptive title. Otherwise in the under $80K market I'd cast my vote for the Lexus LS 430 as being the best Premium Luxury car in the world. I drive my wife's LS 430 on occassion and if you like a reasonably fast car that provides total comfort with one of the best sound systems around, it's tough to beat the LS 430. Fully equipped they run in the low $70s. Although the LS isn't designed for performance, I'd still take a long look at the LS if I had long daily commutes.
sly, I hate to say it, but that's a bit of BS. When my window motor died, I was in desparate need of one and called the dealership from where I leased the car (Ramsey Infiniti in NJ) and they did not have the window motor in stock either (and told me it would take weeks). Park Ave Infiniti takes amazingly good care of me, but the dealerships just take forever to get the parts in. The dealership tells me it is is just Infiniti who is slow with the parts and I do not think this is a lie, but at the same time I do not think they try as hard as they could to get my parts in ASAP. Once they finally got the window motor in stock, they called me in and had my window motor replaced within an hour. Also, with the axle clicking, they told me they had the parts in now during my oil change and they fixed that within the hour as well.
How long a car lasts is subjective....every single car is driven differently, maintained differently, and deals with all sorts of variables. I do not care if a car has problems or if the brand is known for having lots of problems (assuming the car is under warranty). What I do care about is having to wait 4 weeks for a measily window motor when Mercedes can replace an entire navigation unit in a matter of days.
Essentially, there was no brand loyalty on my part to go with an Infiniti vehicle over any other car out there. It was simply between a 330Ci and a G35 Coupe. I decided to go with a brand-new car with sleek and unique styling and a more powerful motor (and less luxury) and I don't regret it.
And at the very least, as with everything, people are always people. Time and matter are the only true facts....everything else is just opinion, so it is impossible for us to state what car is better or worse.
046series, I think when it comes to luxury, Mercedes has it down better than BMW. BMW focuses a lot on sport and ends up compromising...despite how Mercedes wants to appear with their AMG cars and strong advertising, a Benz's personality is all business and not much fun. The new Audi A8 L is a superb luxury sedan and it is very underrated because people are more used to the BMW and MB names.
How long a car lasts is subjective....every single car is driven differently, maintained differently, and deals with all sorts of variables. I do not care if a car has problems or if the brand is known for having lots of problems (assuming the car is under warranty). What I do care about is having to wait 4 weeks for a measily window motor when Mercedes can replace an entire navigation unit in a matter of days.
Essentially, there was no brand loyalty on my part to go with an Infiniti vehicle over any other car out there. It was simply between a 330Ci and a G35 Coupe. I decided to go with a brand-new car with sleek and unique styling and a more powerful motor (and less luxury) and I don't regret it.
And at the very least, as with everything, people are always people. Time and matter are the only true facts....everything else is just opinion, so it is impossible for us to state what car is better or worse.
046series, I think when it comes to luxury, Mercedes has it down better than BMW. BMW focuses a lot on sport and ends up compromising...despite how Mercedes wants to appear with their AMG cars and strong advertising, a Benz's personality is all business and not much fun. The new Audi A8 L is a superb luxury sedan and it is very underrated because people are more used to the BMW and MB names.
In case the subsequent replies haven't already convinced you otherwise, here are but a few threads on the subject.
http://www.bmwboard.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18351
http://www.bmwboard.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17441
http://www.bmwboard.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16560
I think it is you that implies my statement makes such a blanket claim, when we agree "overall japanese cars tend to have fewer problems per model than german or american cars". That is the statement that I have said is not open to question. I have not said that any japanese car is going to be better than any other car. I do not desire to misinform the forum.
It was clearly meant to be a prediction, nothing more and nothing less. I did not realize that we were going to subject our statements to such levels of analysis. [read]
My TL was reliable for two years and 45k, under warranty, going from 0-45k miles. My M3 is now 28 months past delivery, (one month to me) and has just under 40k miles. From what I know of the E46 M3, and the E46 in general, and what I know about the 2004 Acura TL, I believe the M3 will be somewhat less reliable over the next 45k miles. I don't think this is a reason to get rid of the M3 for the TL, or BMW for JDM, since I did the opposite. I think that is a reason to make sure you get a CPO warranty + for your M3.
If I had come on here and told everyone what you ascribe to me, I would warrant the response I have received from you. Since I have not, I do not.
All cars have problems. To acknowledge the overall attributes of one marque or country of origin does not diminish the BMW spirit.
![[driving]](/images/smilies/icon_smile_driving.gif "Driving [driving]")
http://www.bmwboard.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18351
http://www.bmwboard.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17441
http://www.bmwboard.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16560
I think it is you that implies my statement makes such a blanket claim, when we agree "overall japanese cars tend to have fewer problems per model than german or american cars". That is the statement that I have said is not open to question. I have not said that any japanese car is going to be better than any other car. I do not desire to misinform the forum.
It was clearly meant to be a prediction, nothing more and nothing less. I did not realize that we were going to subject our statements to such levels of analysis. [read]
My TL was reliable for two years and 45k, under warranty, going from 0-45k miles. My M3 is now 28 months past delivery, (one month to me) and has just under 40k miles. From what I know of the E46 M3, and the E46 in general, and what I know about the 2004 Acura TL, I believe the M3 will be somewhat less reliable over the next 45k miles. I don't think this is a reason to get rid of the M3 for the TL, or BMW for JDM, since I did the opposite. I think that is a reason to make sure you get a CPO warranty + for your M3.
If I had come on here and told everyone what you ascribe to me, I would warrant the response I have received from you. Since I have not, I do not.
All cars have problems. To acknowledge the overall attributes of one marque or country of origin does not diminish the BMW spirit.
brahtw8 said:
If I had come on here and told everyone what you ascribe to me, I would warrant the response I have received from you. Since I have not, I do not.
All cars have problems. To acknowledge the overall attributes of one marque or country of origin does not diminish the BMW spirit.
All cars have problems. To acknowledge the overall attributes of one marque or country of origin does not diminish the BMW spirit.
Lastly, you did say that Japanese cars were mechanically superior to German and American cars I'm not letting you out of that one..
Have you heard about the Nissan Sentra? theres a whole load of problems with that car too...
Maybe I shouldn't have scrutinized your post, but it seemed as if you were BMW bashing...
Take Sly for instance instead of just acknowledging that Infiniti has its problems like all other cars, he's vigorously defending Infiniti service....
I'm sure we can find a BMW thats been passed around for 200k miles without any problems either, I guess we can call that engines build second to none as well. In the end we all agree... [bmwdance]
In general, from my own experience, I would say that my Japanese cars have been a bit more reliable than my European cars.
The fit and finish of both types have been excellent, though I must say that the Euro cars have used nicer overall materials. Compare it to the domestic trash I have experienced and the difference is drastic!
I must have good car karma, but I have never experienced a catastrophic failure in my Japanese or European cars that has left me stranded. What I have experienced tend to be very minor issues. A few more squeaks in the European cars, which were eventually resolved, and a few more electronic bugs that were eventually resolved as well, again nothing major. For me the driving enjoyment, prestige, style, that the European cars give back is worth the minor hassles that may accompany them.
The main advantage the Japanese cars have is that their luxury cars are based off of more common vehicle types. Like it or not this is a true statement: Examples: The TL is an US Accord, the TSX is a Euro Accord, the RSX is a Civic, the ES330 is a Camry, the IS300 is a Japanese Altezza, Lexus SUV's are all US Toyotas, the G35 is a 350Z, the I35 was a Maxima, the G20 was a Sentra, etc. This ability to rebadge/remarket vehicles, specifically in the US market, (What can I say we are suckers in the US, we seem to fall for marketing consistently) gives you the ability to share major components and production facilities which will in turn keep costs down. Really it is pretty simple, to be unique and not have to share components with "lower" line vehicles you will have to pay up.
The fit and finish of both types have been excellent, though I must say that the Euro cars have used nicer overall materials. Compare it to the domestic trash I have experienced and the difference is drastic!
I must have good car karma, but I have never experienced a catastrophic failure in my Japanese or European cars that has left me stranded. What I have experienced tend to be very minor issues. A few more squeaks in the European cars, which were eventually resolved, and a few more electronic bugs that were eventually resolved as well, again nothing major. For me the driving enjoyment, prestige, style, that the European cars give back is worth the minor hassles that may accompany them.
The main advantage the Japanese cars have is that their luxury cars are based off of more common vehicle types. Like it or not this is a true statement: Examples: The TL is an US Accord, the TSX is a Euro Accord, the RSX is a Civic, the ES330 is a Camry, the IS300 is a Japanese Altezza, Lexus SUV's are all US Toyotas, the G35 is a 350Z, the I35 was a Maxima, the G20 was a Sentra, etc. This ability to rebadge/remarket vehicles, specifically in the US market, (What can I say we are suckers in the US, we seem to fall for marketing consistently) gives you the ability to share major components and production facilities which will in turn keep costs down. Really it is pretty simple, to be unique and not have to share components with "lower" line vehicles you will have to pay up.
You guys are flipping out but you just have to admit that Bimmers break all the time and then you gotta pay mad money to get them fixed. It is common knowledge that you are way better off having a BMW under warranty as opposed to off warranty.
braht is just being realistic and you guys are calling him a traitor even though he JUST picked up an M3...that is a wack attack if I ever saw one.
braht is just being realistic and you guys are calling him a traitor even though he JUST picked up an M3...that is a wack attack if I ever saw one.
The main advantage the Japanese cars have is that their luxury cars are based off of more common vehicle types. Like it or not this is a true statement: Examples: The TL is an US Accord, the TSX is a Euro Accord, the RSX is a Civic, the ES330 is a Camry, the IS300 is a Japanese Altezza, Lexus SUV's are all US Toyotas, the G35 is a 350Z, the I35 was a Maxima, the G20 was a Sentra, etc. This ability to rebadge/remarket vehicles, specifically in the US market, (What can I say we are suckers in the US, we seem to fall for marketing consistently) gives you the ability to share major components and production facilities which will in turn keep costs down. Really it is pretty simple, to be unique and not have to share components with "lower" line vehicles you will have to pay up.
The way I see it is that anything a company can do to hold down its prices is a good thing. I don't think that the Audi TT is a piece of garbage because it was built on the VW Jetta platform. As I posted earlier the G20 was an absolute gem in the rough. It performed comparably to a BMW 318. Why it didn't sell in this country I have no idea. Maybe it was too small and underpowered for the general American car buyer. From a price perspective the G35 and 350 Z are very comparable. Some Z models have higher MSRPs than some G models. The Z focuses on performance whereas the G leans to luxury.
The way I see it is that anything a company can do to hold down its prices is a good thing. I don't think that the Audi TT is a piece of garbage because it was built on the VW Jetta platform. As I posted earlier the G20 was an absolute gem in the rough. It performed comparably to a BMW 318. Why it didn't sell in this country I have no idea. Maybe it was too small and underpowered for the general American car buyer. From a price perspective the G35 and 350 Z are very comparable. Some Z models have higher MSRPs than some G models. The Z focuses on performance whereas the G leans to luxury.
Like others on this Board, I'm brand agnostic. The opinions that I have are based on my own experiences. If my bitterness with my M3 ownership is evident in my posts, so be it. I was not a happy camper having a $55K car with all of those problems and being told that it was my fault. Also, don't you see any differance in being able to find some car that has over 200K miles and having actually owned a car that has over 200K miles? Talk to any knowledgeable mechanic that has worked on G20s and get their opinion.
I never said that Japanese cars are mechanically superior to German and American cars. I said that they are more reliable. Please don't put words in my mouth. Also I base my reliability judgement based on my own experience and unbiased data. Consumer Reports is a good collector of reliability data. I invite you to check out their reliability data. If you do you'll find that every Lexus and every Infiniti model for the last 8 yeaars has received Consumer Reports highest reliability sore. The Audis receive their lowest scores consistently;BMW is a mixed bag over the years and between the models with the 5 series being the best of the lot; and MB is in about the same boat as Audi - lowest scores consistently through the years.
sly, I hate to say it, but that's a bit of BS. When my window motor died, I was in desparate need of one and called the dealership from where I leased the car (Ramsey Infiniti in NJ) and they did not have the window motor in stock either (and told me it would take weeks). Park Ave Infiniti takes amazingly good care of me, but the dealerships just take forever to get the parts in. The dealership tells me it is is just Infiniti who is slow with the parts and I do not think this is a lie, but at the same time I do not think they try as hard as they could to get my parts in ASAP. Once they finally got the window motor in stock, they called me in and had my window motor replaced within an hour. Also, with the axle clicking, they told me they had the parts in now during my oil change and they fixed that within the hour as well.
All I can say is that's surprising. I always had problems getting parts for my Porsches, but that's understandable since there are so few of them. With the huge number of Infinitis in the US market, it's surprising that Infiniti didn't have something like a window motor in one of their parts wharehouses in the US.
All I can say is that's surprising. I always had problems getting parts for my Porsches, but that's understandable since there are so few of them. With the huge number of Infinitis in the US market, it's surprising that Infiniti didn't have something like a window motor in one of their parts wharehouses in the US.
I would never own an M3 or a 996 that wasn't covered by a warranty. They are both fun cars to drive, but you would have to be a huge risk taker to own one without warranty protection. Porsche buyers understand this based on the selling prices of older 996s. I see many advertisements for '97 and '98 993s that have asking prices substantially higher than '99 996s.
BTW the best overall performance car that I ever owned was the E36 M3. The best car decision I ever made was buying the E36, and the worst was trading it in for my E46 M3.