BMW/Benz Vs Lexus/Infiniti Debate...

[Kirby]

Also I base my reliability judgement based on my own experience and unbiased data. Consumer Reports is a good collector of reliability data. I invite you to check out their reliability data. If you do you'll find that every Lexus and every Infiniti model for the last 8 yeaars has received Consumer Reports highest reliability sore.

While I am staying out of the Japan vs. the world debate, I do want to comment about Consumer Reports. They may be a good "collector" of reliability data BUT that data is inherently flawed. It is NOT a truly scientific ramdom sampling, and is indirectly biased. It is based on surveys of their subscribers who choose to respond. This significantly skews the dataset. It represents data from specific classes of consumer:
- Social and economic classes that read/value Consumer Reports
- Those that choose to respond because they are REALLY happy or REALLY disgusted with a product
- People who respond due to psychological need, i.e. because they see a particular rating in Consumer Reports and want to get in on the "ME TOO!" factor.

I'm not saying their data is useless, but MANY discussions, reports & studies have been done (that can be found on the internet - example, example, example) to prove the fact that their data is seriously unscientific and skewed.

The worst part about Consumer Reports is that they call themselves unbiased, but they KNOW that their methods are inherently flawed. A truly unbiased report ALWAYS includes info on their flaws, errors and possible bias in data collection. Why doesn't CR report this - SIMPLE - THEY have a BRAND IMAGE to protect and maintain, showing further bias.

Their results should not be considered gospel, and I think it's a mistake to base ANY purchase decision of any product solely on their ratings.

 

[sly]

Kirby - But from a statistical analysis perspective, even if I granted all of your points, does it really matter as long as the sample size is large enough? CR will not report on certain cars because their sample size is insufficient. Once you're reached the numerical threshold the evaluations should be instructive, unless you are suggesting that for some bizzare reason large numbers of CR readers who own German cars will only respond in the negative, and those who own Infinitis and Lexuses will only respond in the positive. Furthermore they would have to continue this pattern for a period of eight years because CR's reports provide a running 8 year sample. BTW keep in mind that I tried to compare apples to apples. I compared Lexus/Infiniti to Audi/BMW/MB. The vast majority of offerings from these companies are in the $30K to $75K range, and I would expect that they are in very comparable markets.

 

[brahtw8]

The main advantage the Japanese cars have is that their luxury cars are based off of more common vehicle types. Like it or not this is a true statement: Examples: The TL is an US Accord, the TSX is a Euro Accord, the RSX is a Civic, the ES330 is a Camry, the IS300 is a Japanese Altezza, Lexus SUV's are all US Toyotas, the G35 is a 350Z, the I35 was a Maxima, the G20 was a Sentra, etc. This ability to rebadge/remarket vehicles, specifically in the US market, (What can I say we are suckers in the US, we seem to fall for marketing consistently) gives you the ability to share major components and production facilities which will in turn keep costs down. Really it is pretty simple, to be unique and not have to share components with "lower" line vehicles you will have to pay up.

While there is some truth to this analysis, it overlooks the global production of companies like BMW, MB and Audi. In the US, these are premium brands, even at the so-called entry level of $25-30k. However, in the rest of the world, BMW sells cloth-interiored, low powered models of its various cars. To see a 550 or even a 330 is rare, let alone an M-car, with most of the vehicles being 316s, 318s, 320s, etc. Same with MB and Audi. We just started getting the A3 in the US, and only with the large engines, but the rest of the world has been driving A2s, let alone A3s, for years. The germans make lower line vehicles, they just don't market them in the US.

 

[brahtw8]

Kirby - But from a statistical analysis perspective, even if I granted all of your points, does it really matter as long as the sample size is large enough? CR will not report on certain cars because their sample size is insufficient. Once you're reached the numerical threshold the evaluations should be instructive, unless you are suggesting that for some bizzare reason large numbers of CR readers who own German cars will only respond in the negative, and those who own Infinitis and Lexuses will only respond in the positive. Furthermore they would have to continue this pattern for a period of eight years because CR's reports provide a running 8 year sample.

Setting aside the statistical analysis, I find the difficulty with CR is that it does not evaluate the car from the perspective of an enthusiast. As a result, cars with wonderful handling and performance qualities will be rated lower than a car with superior reliability when in some cases the overall picture is to the contrary. It is not so much that the data is flawed, they are simply answering a different question.

 

[sly]

Setting aside the statistical analysis, I find the difficulty with CR is that it does not evaluate the car from the perspective of an enthusiast. As a result, cars with wonderful handling and performance qualities will be rated lower than a car with superior reliability when in some cases the overall picture is to the contrary. It is not so much that the data is flawed, they are simply answering a different question.

I agree. They simply look at reliability, and although that's important to everyone, enthusiasts certainly are also concerned about performance, handling, styling, etc.

 

[MrElussive]

Kirby, I actually think that Consumer Reports is worthless when it comes to reviewing cars. Their data collection methods are skewed and after reading so many different reviews, it becomes obvious that those guys just do not like or care for cars.

 

[PhatBimmer]

Also companies give magazines and companies that review cars their best of the best models they can have, they always tune the suspension a bit and the engine to make it as best as possible. This goes for all companies.

 

[codex57]

BMW and Mercedes only cost more primarily cuz of the name. They charge a premium because they can. There's no perfect luxury car. Some of the price difference can be explained away by the Germans coming out with new technilogical features so R&D cost is high, but I don't put much stock in that cuz the Japs will come out with that same feature about 1 year later and it will be MUCH better than the German feature.

As I said before, there's no perfect luxury car. Each brand has their own features that they're particularly good at. Which one is right for you depends on what you're looking for. Some cars are more reliable, some are more luxurious, some feel more solid, some are sportier, etc.

 

[MrElussive]

There is just no such thing as the perfect car.

 

[Bmw 325i 7803]

Talk to any knowledgeable mechanic that has worked on G20s and get their opinion.

I never said that Japanese cars are mechanically superior to German and American cars. I said that they are more reliable. Please don't put words in my mouth.

Also I base my reliability judgement based on my own experience and unbiased data. Consumer Reports is a good collector of reliability data.

First off I don't need to talk to a mechanic thats worked on spartan old nissans, if they're reliable thats great...


Second I was not quoting you so you can't say I was putting words in your mouth. That makes it sound like we're arguing on here, and you're getting upset. I know you didn't say that, it wasn't directed at you. The bottom portion of my post was, and I'll repeat that you were vigorously defending Infiniti for no real reason. So what if your infiniti never broke, I'm sure theres someone with the same model cars whose had plenty of break downs. All cars break down. But since you brought it up I might as well point out that mechanical superiority and reliability are practically the same thing, you can't call something mechanically superior if its not reliable.

Lastly, don't get me started on Consumer Reports... If it's so holy then explain why the Sentra and the G35 are not on the list. Apparently according to the "ultimate authority" in automotive reliability those two cars don't make the cut. Especially the Sentra, the Sentra is proof that Nissan can build junk today.

 

[sly]

Lastly, don't get me started on Consumer Reports... If it's so holy then explain why the Sentra and the G35 are not on the list. Apparently according to the "ultimate authority" in automotive reliability those two cars don't make the cut. Especially the Sentra, the Sentra is proof that Nissan can build junk today.

The G35 is on the CR recommended list, but the Sentra isn't. As I posted earlier I compared apples to apples, Infinitis to BMWs and not Sentras to the 7 series. Also as I posted earlier, I make my car buying decisions based on my experiences and those who I am close to and not on what I read. When I mentioned that my experience indicates that Japanese cars are on the whole more reliable than German cars, some posters said that any manufacturer can produce a car that lasts forever. Then when I cited a national source, of course many posters ripped apart the source. And that's to be expected since CR's data doesn't conform to the preconceptions of many on this Board.

It's apparent that many on this Board have had great experiences with BMW and are willing to pay a premium to own their cars. And I wouldn't criticize their choice for a second. It's just that I've had a disappointing experience with my last BMW, and therefore I've reached a different judgement.

 

[Kirby]

Kirby - But from a statistical analysis perspective, even if I granted all of your points, does it really matter as long as the sample size is large enough? CR will not report on certain cars because their sample size is insufficient. Once you're reached the numerical threshold the evaluations should be instructive, unless you are suggesting that for some bizzare reason large numbers of CR readers who own German cars will only respond in the negative, and those who own Infinitis and Lexuses will only respond in the positive. Furthermore they would have to continue this pattern for a period of eight years because CR's reports provide a running 8 year sample. BTW keep in mind that I tried to compare apples to apples. I compared Lexus/Infiniti to Audi/BMW/MB. The vast majority of offerings from these companies are in the $30K to $75K range, and I would expect that they are in very comparable markets.

Regarding sample size, you're certainly right, IF the sample size is large enough. That's part of CR's problem - the sample size is way too small, because it is not a random group they are sampling.

"Of over 4 million questionnaires sent this year, the magazine received responses regarding about 480,000 vehicles".

There were about 7.5 million vehicles sold in the US last year. Their survey represents only about 6% sampling of all sales, and it is not a random sampling of the 7.5 million sales, because CR's customer response is not a random group.

Here is a good analogy - a rat feeding experiment:
A controlled experiment could use 30 carefully bred rats in cages... A survey would be like having 100 lab rats starting the experiment and then letting them roam freely around the building with access to doors leading outside. Then measuring those who came back for dinner in their cages at the end of the experiment. Say 8 rats returned, you do not know what happened with those other 92 rats that escaped.

And FWIW, I'm not ripping CR because of my BMW preconceptions - I trust JD Powers scientifically aquired data, and the Japanese manufacturers fare well in those studies. My comments about CR apply to all of their surveys - Cars, vaccuum cleaners, washing machines, lawn mowers, online travel sites, whatever.

 

[sly]

And FWIW, I'm not ripping CR because of my BMW preconceptions - I trust JD Powers scientifically aquired data, and the Japanese manufacturers fare well in those studies. My comments about CR apply to all of their surveys - Cars, vaccuum cleaners, washing machines, lawn mowers, online travel sites, whatever.

That's fair. Even with JD Powers there are flaws. For example I was contacted by them regarding my '02 M3. My blown engine counted as one quality problem. If another car had a rattle, that also counted as one quality problem. Bottom line is that we all have to form our own judgements based on the data that we have before us, and I put a very heavy weight on my personal experiences and far less on what I read.

 

[MrElussive]

Yeah I can tell you guys that I have a ton of minor problems with my G35C and therefore I don't see myself driving another Nissan/Infiniti product ever again. To me, it's okay when cars have problems but dealership response time as well as the ability to fix the issues are more important, and for that I am not too happy.

 

[Big Daddy]

CR has never in my lifetime contacted me about any car I have owned...I feel left out!

 

[sly]

Yeah I can tell you guys that I have a ton of minor problems with my G35C and therefore I don't see myself driving another Nissan/Infiniti product ever again. To me, it's okay when cars have problems but dealership response time as well as the ability to fix the issues are more important, and for that I am not too happy.

You sound like a good candidate for a Porsche. You can then trade-in those girly problems that you had on your G for the manly problems that I had on my Porsche like the rear main seal leaking. My RMS was replaced twice, and my 996 only had 15K miles on the odometer at the time of the second replacement. Better yet maybe buy an M3. W all know that they are trouble free, but even if in the unlikely event that you have a problem, we all know that any BMW Dealer will take care of all of your problems in a heartbeat.

 

[PhatBimmer]

You sound like a good candidate for a Porsche. You can then trade-in those girly problems that you had on your G for the manly problems that I had on my Porsche like the rear main seal leaking. My RMS was replaced twice, and my 996 only had 15K miles on the odometer at the time of the second replacement. Better yet maybe buy an M3. W all know that they are trouble free, but even if in the unlikely event that you have a problem, we all know that any BMW Dealer will take care of all of your problems in a heartbeat.

Why you getting mad dude, why you geting mad?
Don't blame BMW itself for how a dealership treats you, thats up to the dealership itself and its technicians.

 

[tazza0712]

So which is better?

 

[brahtw8]

So which is better?

BMW/Infiniti is better than Mercedes/Lexus . . .

 

[bahnstormer]

i think kia is the best car money can buy